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316'sRegen
27-05-16, 10:14 AM
Hi guys,

With the British referendum on membership of the EU approaching let's have a little poll to see how the champman universe feels about the subject.

Everyone welcome, even though on 23rd June it will only be UK citizens voting I know we host a variety of nations here on the site and other nationals opinions will be just as interesting
(maybe they will also have votes soon on the same subject)

Post a comment with the reason(s) for your choice.

Cheers :ok:

Redknapp69
27-05-16, 10:46 AM
Need to stay in it but as we are now - and keep the £.

If we leave our trading terms will be fucked

316'sRegen
27-05-16, 10:54 AM
like Denmark?
Who do more trade deals than anyone :D

I'm a Leave.EU supporter!

The trade deals need 20 odd countries to agree on the same terms, a big ask. It takes years to negotiate deals that we on our own could do in days/weeks.

Dermotron
27-05-16, 11:06 AM
Back to having EU, Non-EU and Irish terminals at UK airports, fuck that.

All machiavellian reasons from me in hoping the UK stays.

316'sRegen
27-05-16, 11:13 AM
Back to having EU, Non-EU and Irish terminals at UK airports, fuck that.

All machiavellian reasons from me in hoping the UK stays.

Just off the phone with a guy who installs those roller shutter doors, he was saying more or less the same thing.
Our wee country here would be the only UK land border to the EU (IRE) right enough.

I hope that you guys sort out your own referendum to also leave and then we can work out our own "border" arrangements
(border is in speech marks because I challenge anyone to find the border between north and south) ;)

Alcoolix
27-05-16, 11:21 AM
Please stay in, we Need your Money here ;)

ebfatz
27-05-16, 02:13 PM
I'm an in.

If we left, I reckon it would take a good decade to get everything sorted and for us to be standing alone.

Dermotron
27-05-16, 02:14 PM
(border is in speech marks because I challenge anyone to find the border between north and south) ;)

Should just turn Paddy's Day next year into a different type of holiday - every able body man, woman and child descend on the 'border' with a shovel and dig a moat around the 6 counties. Sort out the nationalists and unionists bullshit in a days work

316'sRegen
27-05-16, 02:26 PM
I'm an in.

If we left, I reckon it would take a good decade to get everything sorted and for us to be standing alone.

What makes you think this mate?
I reckon we would be meaner leaner and far more efficient without all the political red tape of Brussels, but I'm interested why you think it would take 10 yrs to organise our affairs?

316'sRegen
27-05-16, 02:28 PM
My signature appeared!
:llama::party::tea::flypig::clap::rockon::peace::c heer::first:

Yes!

ebfatz
27-05-16, 02:56 PM
What makes you think this mate?
I reckon we would be meaner leaner and far more efficient without all the political red tape of Brussels, but I'm interested why you think it would take 10 yrs to organise our affairs?

Re negotiations. Surely all the deals we have in place as EU members will need to be renegotiated. I'd imagine many would play hard ball knowing we would be 'out'. With the financial restraints we are under, that won't be easy and will take some time.
10 years maybe an exaggeration but it won't be an overnight thing.

Dermotron
27-05-16, 03:27 PM
I'd imagine the value of the pound would plummet for awhile too. Not a bad thing for us down here, do 2 or 3 years Xmas shopping for the price of one. The value of a currency isn't always a bad thing though once inflation can be kept in check

Craig Forrest
27-05-16, 06:27 PM
I don't see how you guys can be in, yet keep the pound.... never understood.. but I'm poorly educated on the whole EU thing....

It should be that either everyone is in together, or no one is..... having some in and some out defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it?... the "partial European Union" doesn't quite have the same ring to it

trunky
29-05-16, 10:55 PM
Out. We signed up for a trade agreement and not to be part of an unaccountable gravy train which is pushing for more and more integration.

Fods
29-05-16, 11:48 PM
I couldn't give a flying fuck :flypig:

Baz
30-05-16, 10:18 AM
Stay in. Working in an ESF funded project means that not being in the EU will screw loads of local jobs and training opportunities that are all ESF funded.

ebfatz
30-05-16, 10:45 AM
There's also that Baz. Not long finished a Youth Project through Erasmus+ which was great for the young people involved.

316'sRegen
30-05-16, 03:41 PM
We send £50K a day to the EU beaurocracy.

We'll save plenty of money by not being in.

Also on the trade side of things, we buy far more from the union than we sell to them, we have a trade deficit, so will be losing nothing by exiting.

Also, I was listening to some news yesterday about this topic and it's in the treaty that if a country leaves they must still be offered trade deals.
There is a lot of scaremongering going on and I think we should just be strong and take the plunge.

Craig Forrest
30-05-16, 03:43 PM
Ah but will the money you save be used to fund the kind of things that Baz and Ebz are talking aboot? That's the key.... if the money you save gets redirected to areas where being part of the EU helped, then fine... if not, then leaving may cause some serious problems

316'sRegen
30-05-16, 03:58 PM
That is up to the people to demand I would say.
Had a great chat with a buddy on PSN who is disabled and felt that leaving could mean his rights get diminished, I was actually a bit hurt that he thought that would be what a British government would even try and do, let alone that the British people wouldn't allow it to happen.

But the thing that is annoying me about the whole situation is that there are no actual facts being brought forward as arguments, it's all scare tactics and cult of personality stuff (a bit like the comical USA election)

Anyway here are some facts, I know it's clearly a pro leave website, but the facts are checkable :)
http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/

The most worrying thing is something info0 was talking about way back when I was last around, these TTIP, TPP etc secret corporate deals that also diminish a country's sovereignty. Basically I feel that if we stay in the EU, then TTIP will be enforced on us and our own government is basically ceremonial.

Dermotron
30-05-16, 05:10 PM
TTIP will be a disaster for any country that's part of it other than the states

Ste117
30-05-16, 09:38 PM
I'm in, I don't think leaving is right thing to do going forward and giving the Tories full range to basically do what they want and EU law not being in the way anymore could be a disaster and one this country will never recover from. We should keep pushing for reforms in the EU when Cameron is eventually gone because I think he is the problem.

316'sRegen
30-05-16, 10:45 PM
I know this is turning into me debating all the "stay" points but I can't help it.

Ste: the reason I'm for leaving is that it isn't up to the EU to make our laws!
Cameron is certainly a dirtbag, agree 100% there but it's up to us in our own country to vote in a government that we see fit and hold them to account.

Tories aren't guaranteed anything and the sneaky way Cameron himself has behaved in pretending to negotiate for more concessions for UK while simultaneously preparing the remain campaign to try and frighten UK industry and citizens should be enough for any smart voter to kick the Tories asses out next time.

EU laws are certainly in the way, and we need to address that fact and stand up for ourselves.

Corbin would be just as scary for me personally to have as PM but that's a different topic :)

Dermotron
31-05-16, 08:59 AM
it's up to us in our own country to vote in a government that we see fit and hold them to account.


Isn't this the single greatest deception of democracy? You aren't voting in who you see fit, you are voting in who a certain party wants you to see fit

316'sRegen
31-05-16, 09:22 AM
Yeah it does work like that I guess, even though we elect the MPs locally, when it comes to choosing leaders of the party it's still pretty much the lifetime power brokers in the smoky rooms that give the go ahead.

I do get the feeling that in the last decade or so public opinion has changed from apathy to anger in respect to this, the internet has informed people better than newspapers/TV ever did and people have came from a place of "well there's nothing we can do about it" to something more like "we didn't vote for this, you don't have our consent". I think the coalition govt. and Nick Clegg was one of the main factors in causing this.

Ste117
31-05-16, 02:12 PM
I am also on two projects helping me look for work at the moment and without EU money they wouldn't be there. Another reason I am voting to stay in. Plus this government gives to the rich from the poor and that will get worse without being in the EU. I think it all comes down to trust. I don't trust the government to not completely screw us over the minute the leave. Cameron is all for staying in but I think he can see it as a win- win situation. He campaigns to stay in probably helps the Tories at the next elections in 2020 that doesn't work and we leave he can enact all his ridiculous reforms without the EU telling him what he can and can't do. And I don't trust the government and I think they will screw us over. And by the time the 2020 elections come it will all to be late as the damage will be done and unrepairable. Cameron is smug clever piece of shite and he knows what he is doing to best suit his reforms and for the Tories for the future.

316'sRegen
31-05-16, 02:23 PM
:lol:
I share your hatred of Cameron Ste :ok:

government gives to the rich from the poor which will be worse if we leave the EU
There would be no projects assisting jobseekers if we leave the EU

I don't understand where you are getting the information that backs up these statements mate.
Have you heard of The Prince's Trust, or Springboard? Both UK run programmes that do the same thing. I'm sure there are hundreds more on the local level all throughout the country.

Everyone knows I trust the government as little as you do but the issue is bigger than that. It's about governing ourselves and not being ruled by a federal superstate, an EU commission that isn't even ELECTED! (they are appointed). The talk of 2020 is kind of irrelevant, this is the one and only shot we have at keeping control of our own country. It's now or never.

If we don't get out now, then we are very unlikely to get another chance, TTIP will be enforced and you can forget the Tories and Cameron, the new scumbags will be taking the poor money and sending it to the rich in Strasbourg/Brussels.

Baz
31-05-16, 04:10 PM
You do realise a lot of these 'projects' have stupidly strict criteria, so they wouldn't be accessible by all jobseekers. There are some projects out there that you need to be 25+, long term unemployed and live in certain post codes just to get any kind of support.

316'sRegen
31-05-16, 04:30 PM
TBH mate those are likely the EU funded ones.
I'm not certain on which is which but certainly in my days of visiting the jobcentre, EURES was a big thing, and they had criteria like that.

We're getting bogged down in minutia though, I was trying to say we don't need the support of 27 other nations to help people into work, we are the 5th largest economy on earth and can sort that out ourselves surely?

Ste117
31-05-16, 11:57 PM
But clearly were not sorting it out ourselves because more and more young people are becoming unemployed.

EL-TOPPO
01-06-16, 12:27 AM
But clearly were not sorting it out ourselves because more and more young people are becoming unemployed.

Clearly more and more young people have become lazy, arrogant, ill mannered and complacent and want it all handed on a plate to them.

Youth unemployment is what it is due to youth not willing to take on menial jobs like cleaning etc and instead would rather take their £90 per fortnight sit at home, smoke weed, drink their bottles of booze, wear their pants around their ankles etc. Because they have been allowed to get that way.

Please dont blame the government for what our youth have become. Blame the government for the laws brought in that allowed the youth to put themselves in this position. The soft laws that punished parents who tried to punish their children but couldn't due to laws. Yes I agree with the law partially about hitting or spanking. But here I am a grown man who was chastised as a child if I stepped out of line as well as many others around the country. You dont see much wrong with our work ethic, manners etc.

But besides all that, its not about punishment or jobs. It's about an arrogant bunch of egotistical, corrupt and wealthy politicians who decide our fate.

We are the ones who should vote in leaders. We should vote in new laws. Why should one man be above all others. We should all be equals, but never will be while those with money buy their way to the top.

I know fuck all about politics, nor do I care enough to learn more. All I know is I trust this government and those in power about as far as I could throw them.

Fods
01-06-16, 01:02 AM
Clearly more and more young people have become lazy, arrogant, ill mannered and complacent and want it all handed on a plate to them.

Youth unemployment is what it is due to youth not willing to take on menial jobs like cleaning etc and instead would rather take their £90 per fortnight sit at home, smoke weed, drink their bottles of booze, wear their pants around their ankles etc. Because they have been allowed to get that way.

Please dont blame the government for what our youth have become. Blame the government for the laws brought in that allowed the youth to put themselves in this position. The soft laws that punished parents who tried to punish their children but couldn't due to laws. Yes I agree with the law partially about hitting or spanking. But here I am a grown man who was chastised as a child if I stepped out of line as well as many others around the country. You dont see much wrong with our work ethic, manners etc.

But besides all that, its not about punishment or jobs. It's about an arrogant bunch of egotistical, corrupt and wealthy politicians who decide our fate.

We are the ones who should vote in leaders. We should vote in new laws. Why should one man be above all others. We should all be equals, but never will be while those with money buy their way to the top.

I know fuck all about politics, nor do I care enough to learn more. All I know is I trust this government and those in power about as far as I could throw them.

This is probably the best post I've ever seen form you ;)

Craig Forrest
01-06-16, 02:53 AM
What's funny is that it's often those same kids that complain about immigrants coming to the country and taking the jobs.....

but you know, if they are willing to work their asses off, do the menial jobs, get paid shit wages, and do whatever it takes to support their families while the unemployed youth just sit around and moan.... then I have no problem with it. If the non-immigrants worked half as hard as the majority of the immigrant families, and took the kinds of jobs that the immigrants took, then there would be no need for many of these special programs

The immigrants are usually just happy to have safety and security and the ability to work.... the non-immigrants expect to have shit handed to them and then moan when it isn't

Fods
01-06-16, 10:17 AM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160601/3ec88bba5cc76a5bb4a9e14b907fb39d.jpg

316'sRegen
01-06-16, 10:39 AM
I had a 4 year spell of being unemployed.
After a while you do get depressed and kind of give up on even trying for work, it grinds you down.

It was the government mandated course that I was sent on that actually lit a fire under my ass and got me back out there trying my hardest to get something, anything!

The course itself was useless in terms of qualification (City & Guilds level 1 web design) but the routine of getting up every day and doing something productive snapped me back into reality and I was spending a lot of the time on the course actually applying for jobs and tweaking my CV etc.

My point is I can see where it feels like there is nothing out there sometimes but the guys are right here in saying that it's all about attitude.

The EU will prey on this exact theme as has been done historically many times, they will sell the younger generation on a socialist utopia continent wide. They will say that we need to tax the high earners more which the poor and unemployed and the migrants and the minorities will agree with. The problem with that is that high earners will be seen as anyone remotely middle class and these are the people that spend money and create jobs etc. But the downtrodden underclass, created by the system will blindly vote for such measures in the promise of the aforementioned socialist utopia. This has happened before many times. It doesn't end well.

316'sRegen
01-06-16, 10:55 AM
Guardian Polls regarding the issue:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/31/uk-voters-leaning-towards-brexit-guardian-poll-reveals

Craig Forrest
01-06-16, 05:12 PM
https://hugelolcdn.com/i/394463.png

EL-TOPPO
01-06-16, 09:16 PM
I was unemployed for a good while myself too. Firstly through Illness (mentally and physically some of which is documented in mental health thread), Then for a little while I think it was due to the fact that I had such a big gap between my last job and when I was applying for work.

I will admit I could have pushed myself harder whilst unemployed to get further training, Volunteer work or something to bridge the gap that I felt was holding me back but couldnt be bothered. When I did get pushed into applying for anything that came up I applied for cleaning work, general labour work, shop work, sales etc. No one wanted to give me a chance, could have been down to aforementioned gap in employment, poor cv, poor attitude when attending interviews, lack of confidence. Who knows!

I was finally given a chance almost 3 years ago. Just general shop work for a nationwide chain of convenience stores. Fuck me it felt good. Boosted my confidence no end. I was happier, we are financially better off, As well as that feeling you get when you put in a good shift at work and get thanked by managers and customers alike. Within 4 months I was being trained to run the store in managers absence, Learning the ins and outs of a business (Yes I still dont fully understand things, but still learning on the job as I go along). Within under 9 months I was promoted to shift manager.

Good work ethic, willingness to learn, patience, honesty - All small skills that each of us has in us that allowed me to flourish and better myself. Kids of today they couldnt even hold a candle to the work ethic of my generation, my mothers generation or generations previous to that. Its the same work ethic the foreigners bring to the workplace when they get given an opportunity, Yet a lot of this country are pissed off they are here. Well piss off to the country these migrants are coming from. See the hardship they have to endure, then come back. Maybe then you lazy fuckers will get off your arses, put your back into a shift and finally be thankful for what we actually do have.


Anyway, I think we have veered well off the course of this thread and what it's about.. Stay or go?

I personally dont know. We have been fed lies and propaganda from both sides. Who are we meant to believe - The corrupt Leave party or the equally corrupt Stay party. I am personally not voting. I wont vote as I dont trust either. I'll just have to deal with the fallout of whatever happens when the results are polled.

EL-TOPPO
01-06-16, 09:18 PM
https://hugelolcdn.com/i/394463.png

This wasnt to do with the stay or go debate.. I am sure it was to do with Immigration, but yes serves a point on both debates.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-nazi-filmed-spectacularly-failing-to-burn-eu-flag-in-protest-against-forced-immigration-10141197.html

Ste117
02-06-16, 12:26 AM
I have been unemployed since January and I have hated every minute of it, first time ever I had to sign on in February and since I have done volunteer work in an office based area and volunteer now for my Local Super League team in Media and on matchdays, while recieving help with my CV to make myself more employable and now it has worked as I passed a telephone interview for a call centre anf First Group transport. Just another assessment to pass then I could have a job. But now back on topic :)

316'sRegen
02-06-16, 02:42 PM
Thats an interesting article.

The message behind it is that anyone who wants to leave is a ridiculous idiot who fails to even burn a flag :lol:


Its probably George Osborne under the balaclava !

Redknapp69
02-06-16, 09:11 PM
voting form through today

Baz
02-06-16, 09:20 PM
voting form through today

Had mine yesterday, just need to pick one now and send it back haha.

Ste117
03-06-16, 12:30 AM
Known for months what I'm voting for and won't be changing.

Fods
03-06-16, 01:50 AM
Is it compulsory for the British public to vote over this?

316'sRegen
03-06-16, 09:10 AM
No mate thats Chna you're thinking of :lol:although high turnout is expected for this one it isnt compulsory.


Ste: dont let information or facts get in the way.

Redknapp69
03-06-16, 09:16 AM
I think a bit like the Scottish independence vote, the lack of a clear plan and confident future under leave leads to uncertainty in people so the 'stay/in' vote will win

316'sRegen
03-06-16, 10:42 AM
I don't get what sort of plan should be expected. The plan would be that the government of the UK governs the UK. Its worked everywhere round the world for centuries!


I think that the remain camp will have problems getting people out to vote. While it seems to be pretty evenly split at the moment opinion wise, the leave voters are more fervently wanting to make sure they hit the poll booth. People that think staying is a better idea may not be as keen to run down to the local polling station to make sure we definitely stay in.

Redknapp69
03-06-16, 11:19 AM
I'll be amazed if it's leave

My missus would like to see what would happen if we were to leave (wouldn't everyone?!) but the muppet doesn't vote - maybe a good job as she'd prob get deported if leave did win :pound:

316'sRegen
03-06-16, 05:49 PM
:rofl:

There will not be mass deportation mates.


Over the next couple of weeks the immigration issue will come up but it isnt a goal of the leave campaign to deport everyone. The main thing you will hear about is that immigration to the UK was 330000 last year, a city the size of Colchester moved here last year. That is untenable on an ongoing basis and with Turkey joining possibly in tge next 5 years that number could even increase.


The UK was built on immigration and no one wants to stop it altogether, but it should be our own discretion how many we accept and on what basis (skill based/assylum/business based etc)

info0
03-06-16, 05:54 PM
Mate... Germans allowed over 3 mln immigrants due to Merkel politics last year alone lol. It's said that next 2 to 3 mln are coming.

If UK closes borders, what would happen to people already living in UK but not being British citizens? Yep, I fear for what Redders is saying. Deportation to home country. Many Poles came to UK to work. Will UK now say: you can fuck off? Good luck with getting your youngsters to do jobs immigrants do ;).

316'sRegen
03-06-16, 06:05 PM
I know about Germany. Their population is fuming with Merkel ovdr this and the events of new years eve in Cologne.

The stay campaign plays on people's fears, no factual arguments at all.
I repeat again, no one has even suggested deporting anyone, not that I have seen anyway but i'm always happy to be educated if anyone can show the leave campaign promoting deportation.


The campaign is about UK making our own laws and policing our own borders and not eng ruled by the ECB.


I know the stay propaganda paints this as racist and xenophobic but that shows their desperation and lack of proper arguments.

Ste117
03-06-16, 07:08 PM
Well I am voting to remain. Many Brits work and live in different countries around Europe, they don't have a problem with it. The way I see it is the freedom to work and live were you want and by closing our borders we are denying people the same luxury that we have to choose were we live and work. I see that as unfair. I want to live and work in another European country at some point in my life and if that country wanted to shut its borders then I would be very unhappy about it and feel I was being treated differently. I do understant that it is not as many Brits working abroad to foreigners that work in this country but if our country was poor and others rich I am pretty sure we would be doing the same,

Elgin_McQueen
03-06-16, 08:35 PM
That is up to the people to demand I would say.
Had a great chat with a buddy on PSN who is disabled and felt that leaving could mean his rights get diminished, I was actually a bit hurt that he thought that would be what a British government would even try and do, let alone that the British people wouldn't allow it to happen.

Wouldn't shock me when the government has already toyed with changing the definition of human rights in this country. Something they can't do unless they vote to leave.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-tory-plan-to-scrap-the-human-rights-act-just-moved-one-step-closer-10491173.html

Elgin_McQueen
03-06-16, 08:41 PM
I don't get what sort of plan should be expected. The plan would be that the government of the UK governs the UK. Its worked everywhere round the world for centuries!



Your argument seems to be, we should do it all ourselves cause it's gotta be better that way. If we accept for a second that that's totally correct, then why did we join in the first place? If being part of it is only negative.?

316'sRegen
06-06-16, 12:33 AM
It was sold to us a trade agreement mate but its becoming more and more like the USSR by the day.

When we joined it was called the EEC, it was about a common market and trading with our partners.


Now they are basically taking the piss in my view, trying to make it that all of Europe is ruled over by a tiny elite on the commission which once again is not even elected by the citizens. We need to get out of it, and to encourage our neighbours to do the same and kill this ever expanding beauricratic nonsense.


We dont need this institution to deal with our partners in europe, if anything it slows things down.

Craig Forrest
06-06-16, 03:51 PM
What's wrong with the USSR? ;)

316'sRegen
06-06-16, 03:58 PM
It's all in this book :D :D


https://www.penguin.com.au/covers/catalog/9780141182704.jpg

Erkifino
06-06-16, 09:50 PM
From Animal Farm to 1984... :P

316'sRegen
07-06-16, 12:12 PM
http://www.bilderbergmeetings.org/index.html

Mark
07-06-16, 01:14 PM
I don't think I've met anyone personally who isn't voting 'out' at the moment.

Redknapp69
07-06-16, 03:04 PM
Yep - sounds like it could be closer than people expect.

Oldies will get their votes placed and will vote out

Still think 'in' will get about 55-60% of vote

316'sRegen
07-06-16, 09:23 PM
I'm pleased that the thread has over 900 views, near the top of the last month.

First time I have been genuinely excited by a vote, i think many throughout the country are the same.

Craig Forrest
07-06-16, 09:48 PM
What will you do though if England leaves the EU, and things go worse? What if the GDP falls because you no longer have preferential trade with EU countries? What if the UK then has a diminished voice deciding issues that affect all of Europe?

I'm not saying it's going to be the case... I really have no idea.... but the odds of everything being rosy are not super likely.... there is bound to be some blowback, regardless of what people say.... there is never 100% good things that happen in situations such as this...

and then what? what if life is worse in a non-EU Britain than in an EU one? Would you support going back in?

316'sRegen
07-06-16, 10:01 PM
I have looked at it for a year now since they announced it.I dont think leaving will solve every problem we have n Britain but I do feel like i know what happens if we stay in and that staying for me is far more problematic.


I don't see it being a magic bullet and we are still going to be under a corrupt and delusinal fractional reserve banking system that creates more debt than profit or growth.


We are still for the next couple of years going to be under a David Cameron government, although he might not last long if we leave.


But we can then vote them out, change the government, protest against injustices that may exist in our system and hold their feet to the fire to redress the balance. That isn't possible in the EU superstate, we would have very little voce in it if you look at the numbers of MPs and the increasing amount of countries involved.


Second point, no i wouldn't want to join back in. I would push for exit referenda in other member states :D

Craig Forrest
07-06-16, 10:06 PM
But what if this weakens Britain's trade power? You guys export a ton of stuff to the EU.... if you suddenly have an unfavourable trade deal with the large single market (and don't forget, if you leave, the EU essentially has all the power when negotiating a new agreement with you, and little to no reason to make it in your best interest), that could start a recession and drive up the prices of common goods... isn't it better to be part of a large economic market with a massive negotiating power, rather than one lone economy that no one needs to play nice with?

Craig Forrest
07-06-16, 10:07 PM
I'm still a firm believer that all this talk of countries and nations is ridiculous.... call me idealistic, but I think we should all be part of one thing, not arbitrarily separated into countries and regions

316'sRegen
07-06-16, 10:15 PM
read about Denmark and Switzerland mate, they aren't in and they do much better in trade deals than any EU country.

Also, we BUY loads from the EU, we sell some but overall the money goes in the other direction. They need us, we won't end up with shortages of common goods, everyone wants to sell their shit in the UK. The biggest trade partner with the UK is still the USA, not the EU.


I get what you're saying on the economic point and although they are forced to offer us a deal they may try to gouge us after tge Brexit. My answer to that would be that we just start making the shit again ourselves, create more jobs while we're at it.

316'sRegen
07-06-16, 10:21 PM
I'm still a firm believer that all this talk of countries and nations is ridiculous.... call me idealistic, but I think we should all be part of one thing, not arbitrarily separated into countries and regions

idealistically i agree.
in practice absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The nation state means that if some country gets a bloodthirsty megalomaniac dictator hell bent on world domination then there is an opposition to that


if there is a one world government then where would the power hungry dictator types gravitate to?
and where would the resistance come from once the one government controlled everything?


if we could get a few angels with altruistic hearts i would love to see it but human nature doesn't seem to bend that way, power attracts evil :(

Erkifino
07-06-16, 10:28 PM
I'm still a firm believer that all this talk of countries and nations is ridiculous.... call me idealistic, but I think we should all be part of one thing, not arbitrarily separated into countries and regions

I'm with you on this CF. Flags, anthems, beliefs, currencies, national pride etc. all small wedges of difference that divide us.... unfortunately.

316'sRegen
07-06-16, 10:53 PM
Wow.

Everyone should have the same homogonised culture, customs, food, drink, same religion, same language?
I wouldn't want to go on holiday anywhere in that world, everything the same thing boring as fuck


Aren't you guys proud of your own country and heritage/history/culture?


Trying to pretend there are no differences between different people is crazy, Accepting peoples differences and trying to work with them is really the best we can try and do.


This is super relevant in Europe which has many amazing cultures, strong nations that this EU wants to crush into one giant land mass, devoid of character or personality ;)

Fods
08-06-16, 08:22 AM
Not every country will have the same weather tho 316!

kuy
08-06-16, 09:49 AM
Remain.

I'm not an expert and I haven't done loads of research, but I'll put a couple of points below.

Economy:

Pretty much every expert opinion says that Britain will be worse off if we leave the EU (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-economists-say-brexit-will-damage-economy-a6898886.html). I don't think that's in question. Particularly, that "£350M per week/£50M per day" figure is just wrong - in fact, it's been so misused by the Leave campaign that they've been officially warned about it http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-statistics-regulator-loses-patience-with-leave-campaign-over-350m-a-week-eu-cost-a7051756.html

The statement that 'Britain buys more from Europe than it sells, so the EU needs us more than we need them' ignore the fact that the EU is much bigger than Britain - even if the bare numbers are in our favour, one should be looking at percentages: 45% of UK exports go to the EU, whilst only 16% of EU exports go to Britain www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-brexit-how-important-would-uk-trade-be-eu

All four countries like Switzerland that are out of the EU but still in the European Free Trade Association also have to accept freedom of movement and other concessions in order to get those trade deals. (Someone mentioned Denmark, but they are in the EU - possibly meant Norway?) Britain is actually in a pretty sweet place by having all the trade advantages without being a member of Schengen or using the Euro. We're really having our cake and eating it too on this one.

Also, from https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/what-impact-would-brexit-have-on-the-eu (some words removed to make it more readable, but nothing that changes the content):


Technically, there would be no negotiations about the terms of access of the UK to the rest of EU; the EU would determine the future terms of access of the UK to the EU. The UK would, of course, set the terms of access of the rest of EU to the UK. The negotiations on future economic (and political) relations between the UK and the rest of EU would, however, likely be very asymmetric with negligible bargaining power for the UK.


Not to mention all the huge firms that may move out of Britain into the EU if we left: the major industries of today and tomorrow (I'm thinking technology, banking, engineering) are multinational and choose Britain for its access to the EU. They would not be happy to be cut off from Europe (for just two examples, see Nissan and BMW, http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/09/nissan-bmw-against-brexit/ and Goldman Sachs, http://www.wsj.com/articles/who-loses-the-most-from-brexit-try-goldman-sachs-1460403274). They'd likely leave Britain and relocate to, say, Paris or Berlin, further damaging our economy.

Immigration:

Immigrants pay more into Britain than they take out (https://next.ft.com/content/c49043a8-6447-11e4-b219-00144feabdc0). Therefore, we would be less able to pay for the NHS, schools, etc if we reduced immigration.

We hear a lot about how we could introduce an "Australian-style" points-based/skills-based immigration system if we had 'control of our own borders', but that's not what this government would do - for non-EU workers it's simply "Will you earn under £30k? No entry." Even if you're already here, it's "Earn under £35k? Get out." (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/eu-workers-deported-earning-less-35000-employees-americans-australians), and I see no reason why this wouldn't then be extended to EU citizens if we left. This doesn't meet the idea of allowing in immigrants based on what the UK needs (such as nurses or teachers, both of whom earn under £30k), so I don't trust that we would have a 'good' immigration policy if we left.

Also, the single greatest driver of inequality in the world today is restricted movement (http://timharford.com/2014/11/a-passport-to-privilege/). This is maybe more a question of individual morals, but I strongly believe that reducing mobility of people between countries is a backwards step and is to be deplored.

Bureaucracy:

This claim that being in the EU means being governed by unelected bureaucrats is just weird - 'unelected bureaucrats' work for goverments everywhere, it's like saying that the UK is governed by the Civil Service (viewers of Yes, Minister may wish to agree with this!). You could even argue that with two levels of democracy - directly-elected MEPs, plus representation from heads of member states' governments - the EU is more democratic than normal, not less (but that might be pushing it a bit!)

Homogenisation:

(Got to admit, this was a new argument to me, I hadn't heard anyone mention it before.)

The EU, as an organisation, has 24 official languages. Its motto is 'United in Diversity'. There's no reason to think that the EU is promoting or striving for homogenisation of culture - in fact, it actively campaigns to protect and encourage diversity. It supports and empowers minority groups by, for example, giving languages like Catalan and Welsh 'semi-official' status.





Finally, whilst there are people I dislike on both sides of the debate (Cameron, Hunt saying stay; Gove, Johnson, Trump, Farage, the Daily Mail saying leave), I don't think any public figure I like or respect has said to leave. As far as I've seen, every political and economic commentator that I trust advocates staying in.



EDIT: Phew, that was longer than I thought! (That's what she said...). It's something I feel quite strongly about, to the extent that I'd be pretty upset and angry if any of my friends and family voted to leave.

316'sRegen
08-06-16, 11:08 AM
every "expert" opinion :lol: says that the UK will be damaged by leaving. I'm sorry but these are only liberal/leftist/socialist "experts". There are plenty of others like Peter Schiff, Gerald Celente, Max Kieser etc that have the exact opposite view and they are also "experts" (if it is possible to be so as markets are notoriously difficult to predict, although these 3 have a track record in doing so)

Along the same lines, the world economic forum, the institute of economic research etc, they are probably paid for by the beauracracy, of course they want the gravy train to continue.

I don't believe those firms will leave the UK. Isn't it the case that we can choose our own corporation tax level if we leave? We could attract many new inward investments in this way.

On immigration it is untenable to allow the current levels to continue, and I don't believe for 1 second that migrants put more in than they take, I can't read that FT article it doesn't allow me without subscription.
I do believe in controlled immigration, you can't have a free welfare state and NHS free at the point of use and open borders at the same time.
I would like to add that we aren't getting the Mexicans to build a wall, :eek: there will still be immigration, helping true asylum seekers etc and viable workers that we need, just not a completely open season for anyone to pitch up and start claiming benefits.

Yes the commission is appointed by the heads of state, but this is not acceptable to me or many others. The "you scratch my back I'll appoint you to the upper house of Europe" model is what's wrong with the western world and why should these people be appointed to decide what the laws are? I think some proper MPs that have been voted in our own constituencies should definitely be involved in any law making that affects us, same with all other 27 members. Their citizens should be more properly represented. Have a listen to Farage discussing this in the EU parliament it's quality stuff. Even if you don't agree with him you'll get a laugh out of it.

The homegeny argument was just in response to the guys that want no countries and a one world government (which is the reason the EU is wanting to suck the power out of nations in the first place but don't get me started on TTIP, TPP, North American union, trilateral commission, Bilderberg, DAVOS, council on foreign relations and how it is all connected)

(Yes I think it was Norway I was on about :ok:)

We agree that both sides representatives aren't really likeable, I do like BoJo as a comedy character though.
I'm going to watch them on the tele on Thursday night though to see how it goes in the debates

kuy
08-06-16, 11:47 AM
I meant to say in the post before: I'm not going to change my mind on this, and I doubt you are either, so I'm not looking to debate - I just wanted to share some views from the opposite side. Hope you understand :ok:
Since I am replying though (:doh:), I'll address a couple of points where either you've asked me a question or maybe I wasn't clear before, but I won't try to argue the points that you've made:

I did say 'pretty much' every expert opinion - I shared a study that gives over 88% of 600 professional, academic economists (this article http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron reports the numbers better); you mentioned three names, only one of whom has any credibility (Keiser is a TV presenter with minimal financial experience, Celente started his own prediction institute and journal, but Schiff I will grant).

We set our own corporation tax already.

Here's a Guardian (no paywall) article on the same story as the FT one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study. It doesn't matter what you believe, these are facts. So, again, the NHS and welfare state are under less financial strain, not more, due to EU immigration.

I would love to help 'true asylum seekers and viable workers that we need', but as I described, I just don't believe that would happen. After all, that's not what happens for non-EU immigrants now.

Dermotron
08-06-16, 12:28 PM
It all boils down to one thing. Whatever the banks want and is best for the banks will be the most forceful opinion

316'sRegen
08-06-16, 12:32 PM
I can see that your mind is made up with the comment about being angry with your friends if they had a different view from yours. :(
(more guardian articles?) :lol:

That one is actually quite interesting and those are the type of immigrants we are looking for, skilled workers or highly educated graduates. It does go on to say that university degree level people end up working as baristas etc and the qualified people coming here hurts their own country.

Kieser has intrical knowledge of trading stocks and market behaviour, he wrote some of the first algorithms for computerised trading, I know that he is an extravagant character on his show, but that doesn't mean he knows nothing about economics. The whole thing about "experts" though like I said, there is no such thing as an expert on this subject, well maybe someone in a former soviet country could be well placed to discuss it but the people both sides put forward as "experts" can be silly at times.

My mind too is made up it's probably clear to see, but don't get me wrong, I do appreciate everyone's view and actually enjoy trying to look at things from more than one angle.
It is a topic with thousands of angles and I think it's good to at least discuss some of them.

kuy
08-06-16, 12:49 PM
Yeah for sure :ok: I think for this referendum (and the Scottish independence referendum before it) that most people will vote based on gut feeling or personal belief, not statistics and facts, so there's not a lot of point trying to convince people anyway! As long as people stay civil then it should be an interesting discussion too.

Hey, the Guardian may be trendy Islington Socialist when it comes to culture and recipes (oh god, so much kale...) and so on, but their stats reporting is pretty good (just compare the detail in their article to that in the Independent) ;) Besides, I went for the Independent and the FT first! :P

Craig Forrest
08-06-16, 03:26 PM
Wow.

Everyone should have the same homogonised culture, customs, food, drink, same religion, same language?
I wouldn't want to go on holiday anywhere in that world, everything the same thing boring as fuck


Aren't you guys proud of your own country and heritage/history/culture?


Trying to pretend there are no differences between different people is crazy, Accepting peoples differences and trying to work with them is really the best we can try and do.


This is super relevant in Europe which has many amazing cultures, strong nations that this EU wants to crush into one giant land mass, devoid of character or personality ;)

When did I say any of that? Of course people are different.... but arbitrary divisions force us apart.... I cherish diversity.... I really only date women from other cultures so I can expand my knowledge..... I'm more of a "all humans working towards the same goal of peace and prosperity" kind of idealist..... I never said anything about a homogeneous group all speaking the same language and having the same customs... :nono:

316'sRegen
08-06-16, 04:04 PM
:lol:


I'm still a firm believer that all this talk of countries and nations is ridiculous.... call me idealistic, but I think we should all be part of one thing, not arbitrarily separated into countries and regions

Not the exact words but countries and nations are ridiculous? We should all be part of one thing? You knew I would react to that Craig :becky: :fish:

Countries weren't created arbitrarily mate, there is a unique history and culture behind each one, conquest, politics, revolution, art, history, music, invention, all sorts of heritage and interesting culture.
People around the world are proud of their countries. I thought you were suggesting that we should get rid of all borders and countries (it does kind of look like that)

The working together bit I can get on board with, in fact that was my reply!
Better diplomacy between countries is something we agree needs to happen.

But the nation state will prevail :horn:

At least until :alien::alien::alien::alien:

:D :yo:

Craig Forrest
08-06-16, 04:12 PM
Sure.... if the aliens come, hopefully we'll all put aside our petty differences and work together :ok:

Erkifino
08-06-16, 06:16 PM
Wow.

Everyone should have the same homogonised culture, customs, food, drink, same religion, same language?
I wouldn't want to go on holiday anywhere in that world, everything the same thing boring as fuck

'Homogonised culture' is already here. It's in the top 40, it's in the box office, it's in fashion magazines, it's got the views on youtube, the likes on facebook, the retweets on twitter. It's always been here. You can chose to focus on it for good or bad. I don't focus on it at all. I've the music I like/play, I've the movies I like, the shows, the books, cm0102...
And sometimes my likes even cross paths with the homogonised culture. As for customs, food, drink & language, they are purely based on where you are born for the most part and for others where their parents were born. If a Spaniard and German couple have a child, what culture should it be brought up with?


Aren't you guys proud of your own country and heritage/history/culture?
Jumping on the glory of history/ancestors. What makes it yours(rhetorical)? What about the negative parts of heritage/history/culture? Chose to ignore? Or acknowledge them and get embarrassed/humbled?



Trying to pretend there are no differences between different people is crazy, Accepting peoples differences and trying to work with them is really the best we can try and do.There are differences, but we are not all that different. The world is more connected now than it ever was. English, French and Japanese architects designing buildings in countries that aren't their native lands. Supermarkets doing Spanish/Greek/Bavarian themed weeks. The worldwideweb in your pocket.


This is super relevant in Europe which has many amazing cultures, strong nations that this EU wants to crush into one giant land mass, devoid of character or personality ;)
I have more of a beef with the Irish government fucking up the island I live on than any of the European bureaucrats.

I'm an Irishman that doesn't practice the religion of my youth. I don't drink. I'm a pacifist. I don't follow my county's hurling or football team. It's not the land I was born that defines me, it's the people I've met (friends, family, randomers etc.), the experiences I've had (aural/visual/physical etc.) I'm amazed by the structues the Celts, Egyptians, Aztec, Romans, Incas etc. built, that stand today. Humanity has evolved but sometimes tribalism comes to the forefront.

A bit of a longwinded post... sorry.

EL-TOPPO
08-06-16, 09:25 PM
Newspapers never lie - True Story :rolleyes:

Dont believe everything you read in the papers. Who is to say they werent paid big lumps of cash to print things in favour of staying or indeed leaving?

Trust your gut instinct, 90% of the time it will be right.

Craig Forrest
08-06-16, 09:34 PM
Trust your gut instinct, 90% of the time it will be right.

Where did you read that? ;)

316'sRegen
08-06-16, 09:44 PM
longwinded posts are the best :ok:

i have a few points to that but hate typing on this vita.


Where did you read that :lol: you crack me up CF!

Ste117
08-06-16, 10:25 PM
USA isnt our biggest trade power, we deal something like 260 million with Europe and the USA is considerably less.

Ste117
08-06-16, 10:26 PM
If we leave and our country goes downhill into another recession then I will be blaming the people who voted leave for it and I will also be looking to get out of this country and onto the mainland.

Fods
09-06-16, 01:55 AM
If we leave and our country goes downhill into another recession then I will be blaming the people who voted leave for it and I will also be looking to get out of this country and onto the mainland.

I thought you lived in England?

316'sRegen
09-06-16, 10:00 AM
USA isnt our biggest trade power, we deal something like 260 million with Europe and the USA is considerably less.

I think you meant Billions, but have a look at this list, USA is the top country.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/
I guess if you are counting EU as a country (which it isn't) then it would be the top trader (exports) but when we leave the EU France aren't going to stick two fingers up and ban our products :D
Neither will Germany or any of the other partners in EU, WHY? because we import more than we export. My point was that EU aren't the be all and end all, nor will trade cease upon us leaving.

I was surprised at how high China was in that list as well, and also Switzerland (who aren't EU) come in at 3rd.


If we leave and our country goes downhill into another recession then I will be blaming the people who voted leave for it and I will also be looking to get out of this country and onto the mainland.

The mainland! :lol: :lol:
Once again: EUROPE IS NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY.

I think you have been listening to government propaganda too much Ste. Sounds exactly like what Osborne was saying on the Andrew Neill interview (available on BBC iPlayer)
Remember, a referendum is for the population as a whole to make a decision, we have to live with whatever everyone decides, that's democracy in it's purest form.

316'sRegen
09-06-16, 10:47 AM
Erk:

You make me a little sad :(
Your place of birth doesn't have to define you mate but you seem to have totally rejected your local community.

I sympathise in some ways because I hated the North of the island just as much because when I was younger, everything was defined by what "side" you were on. Through the years this has faded a lot, it hasn't completely disappeared but I do feel more proud now of the country I'm from because we have dragged ourselves out of the darkness and decided we want to be a normal country. We now have the odyssey arena and international stars come here (wouldn't have happened in the 80s)

For some people it could be a pride that their ancestry goes back to the original settling/founding/formation of a country, they feel proud that their roots are deep.
For some it is stories of how their grandparents fought in wars to secure their freedom.
Indeed, there is a rich history of Ireland that has just celebrated its centenary at Easter there.
Yes there are dark eras in history also as you say but take my example, yes we killed each other for years in Northern Ireland and we don't try to forget that, but we sorted it out and decided that had to stop, that's something to remember with pride.

When I mentioned homogenised culture I didn't just mean mainstream culture, which is what you are referring to (Western culture pretty much) but I do agree that it is already being done. 2 NFL league matches a year played at Wembley is a good example of this. I know there is mainstream culture, that's fine, it's just the most popular stuff. I just worry that if there are no borders, everything is assimilated into one, then we lose some of the individuality and character of the regional areas.

The food and drink thing yes it's about where you are born, but it's also about some genius hundreds of years ago that figured out this area is perfect for growing(insert ingredient) or perfected a process for creating some product and handed down the recipe and tradition for generations, it's something to savour and enjoy and to be proud of. (also something to sell ££)

What I mean is that each little country across the planet has it's own cultures, traditions and habits.
Spanish siesta, Italians kiss on each cheek, Brazilian carnivals, Japanese honour code, Octberfest, the list s endless but I love this about the world everywhere as it's own specialty r it's own thing whatever it may be.

You may not be proud of your place, and I don't know why because it's amazing, but most people are.

Erkifino
09-06-16, 12:43 PM
It's not that I don't feel proud... I'll be shouting on the Boys in Green!

I could talk about the 100 years as a Republic or I could give out about the 800 years of oppression. I wasnt oppressed so why would I give out about the latter. And how long were we a Republic before we joined another union?

We're supposed to learn from history and for the most part I don't think we have. Begrudgery, enforcing opinions/beliefs on others, land theft, resource theft etc. The current war is a cultural one. How can something deemed a positive cause so much death and chaos?

Look at the finer points of humanity and be proud of those. Humans can adapt, survive, forgive, create,educate, learn...

Fods
12-06-16, 07:16 AM
http://youtu.be/Tg4goZxXRZk

EL-TOPPO
12-06-16, 07:42 PM
Courtesy of Anthony Preece posted on the BREXIT 2016 - send the message)


Do you want facts to throw at the Remainiacs? They tell us we will suffer economically if we leave, our industries will suffer .... Well read this!
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,..
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
Pete Giles
23 June, VOTE LEAVE!

316'sRegen
13-06-16, 12:42 PM
43% of the vote each for stay and leave :ok:

The poll will be open until this Friday 17th June.

Erkifino
13-06-16, 02:39 PM
That's one helluva list but does it not reek of propaganda?

It's a result of capitalism.

How many people buy stuff off the internet vs bricks and mortar because it's cheaper? We all buy stuff cheaper. We demand stuff cheaper. And in turn companies make it cheaper by upping sticks. That won't change with a Yes or No vote and it would have happened, EU or not.

316'sRegen
13-06-16, 02:49 PM
I think his point was that the EU gave grants and loans to help this happen.

Craig Forrest
13-06-16, 02:55 PM
EU gave grants and loans for lots of things in the UK too.... I think it probably works both ways.... I've read many an article recently about programs funded by EU money that will vanish if the UK leaves... because you know the government won't start handing over cash to help continue all the defunded programs

jdgmedia
15-06-16, 06:45 PM
It's pointless trying to form an opinion based on the two campaigns, because they are both full of such rubbish.

I'm voting remain - I don't really see how leaving will benefit either me or the country as a whole. Leaving could be the first step towards the break up of the UK, as the Scotland referendum issue is likely to raise its head again.

316'sRegen
15-06-16, 07:29 PM
Maybe there will be seperate governments for the UK countries, sure we all have our own parliaments already, but the partnership aspect of the UK wouldn't ever break up i don't think.

People think about in terms of "breaking up" but I see it as it's better to have your government as close to you as possible so you can keep them honest. Or at least try to :lol:

jdgmedia
15-06-16, 08:12 PM
The only positive would be if a new state, North England, broke away from those southern toffs :D

Craig Forrest
15-06-16, 08:40 PM
The only positive would be if a new state, North England, broke away from those southern toffs :D

East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Northumbria, Mercia, Sussex, and Wessex :ok:

316'sRegen
15-06-16, 09:10 PM
East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Northumbria, Mercia, Sussex, and Wessex :ok:

Exactly

Winner of best post in the thread :first:

316'sRegen
15-06-16, 09:11 PM
but it's still tied

:ear:

Get your votes in before the 17th June for the champman Brexit poll.

:peace:

Dermotron
17-06-16, 09:57 AM
WTF is wrong with people these days? Too much looking at screens melting our brains to below an IQ of 60

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/743460787667238912

316'sRegen
17-06-16, 10:04 AM
Who is that Derm?

I got off twitter a while back, it was full of mongos and the trends are now manipulated, so it isn't what it's supposed to be anymore.

Dermotron
17-06-16, 10:12 AM
More 'everything is a conspiracy' clowns. Jo Cox murder is false flag is the general theme of the link

316'sRegen
17-06-16, 10:21 AM
That doesn't even fit into the category of "false flag"

Doesn't make sense.

The papers are describing the suspect as an extreme right lunatic psycho, is the false flag supposed to be that everyone who wants to leave is like him or something? :lol:

Looking at screens causes brains to melt is a good deduction of this, these guys probably spend their days on twitter following manipulated false trends :D

Dermotron
17-06-16, 10:30 AM
The false flag is that the remain side done it according to the link / images from other accounts.

316'sRegen
17-06-16, 10:54 AM
:lol:

The latest false flag event happened in the gay nightclub in Orlando :ok:

Anyway,

Thanks for everyone getting involved in this thread and the poll.

Leave have won narrowly 45% to 40% stay, a result I predict will be repeated next Thursday.
Whatever side you believe is the right one, get yourself out and join in the vote!!

:closed:

Redknapp69
17-06-16, 11:49 AM
Stay will still sneak it IMO - about 53-47%

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 01:25 PM
:lol:

The latest false flag event happened in the gay nightclub in Orlando :ok:


Not this crap again......

316'sRegen
17-06-16, 01:29 PM
I'll discuss this with you mate but in the chatbox or something.
Or start a Pulse nightclub thread :D

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 03:23 PM
No need.... I work in law enforcement, we've been in contact with Orlando police regarding this for reasons I won't get into.... nothing false about what happened at that club

Ste117
17-06-16, 03:32 PM
It's ridiculous tbh, she was killed by a evil pethetic human being and nothing else. I have seen people bring mental health reasons for him doing it and that annoys. Mental Health can't be used as an excuse to kill someone, you kill someone because you have evil in you and that is it.

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 03:36 PM
You talking about the British MP Ste? Chris and I are talking about the shooting at the gay bar in Florida

and yes, mental health can be brought into it..... some people are so messed up, they literally don't understand their actions...... there are many reasons people kill other people...."having evil in you" is really not a reason

I'm not claiming knowledge of what happened to the MP.... I'm just saying

for example, if my daughter got raped and I killed the guy who did it, is that because I have evil in me? if you go back in time to assassinate Hitler, is that because you have evil in you?

Ste117
17-06-16, 03:42 PM
You talking about the British MP Ste? Chris and I are talking about the shooting at the gay bar in Florida

and yes, mental health can be brought into it..... some people are so messed up, they literally don't understand their actions...... there are many reasons people kill other people...."having evil in you" is really not a reason

I'm not claiming knowledge of what happened to the MP.... I'm just saying

for example, if my daughter got raped and I killed the guy who did it, is that because I have evil in me? if you go back in time to assassinate Hitler, is that because you have evil in you?

Yeah I understand it from that perspective but when you look at that MP murder yesterday you think why? What does it achieve? I still think it's a tricky thing.

I don't know a lot of the shooting in Orlando so not going to comment on it but I was sickened when I heard about it.

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 03:57 PM
I always figure that murders like that MP are just fucked up individuals.... usually murder has a reason... revenge, stop someone from passing information, jealous rage, contract killing, to send a message.... but sometimes just some crazy person who thinks that their kids are demons or that some public person is evil and needs to be stopped.... and sometimes you get no answer unfortunately

316'sRegen
17-06-16, 04:02 PM
No need.... I work in law enforcement, we've been in contact with Orlando police regarding this for reasons I won't get into.... nothing false about what happened at that club

false flag doesn't mean it's made up :lol:

316'sRegen
17-06-16, 04:05 PM
The drugs that are given to people that ask doctors for help can have bad reactions with some.
Cocktails of the drugs which sadly are prescribed on many occasions as well.

You can link this with a lot of the random seemingly "evil" senseless killings that happen.

Diekefirts
17-06-16, 04:10 PM
with europe as 1 country the rich got richer and the poor poorer. the rich even got richer on greece's problems. the world needs more diversity, in people and in countries. please let europe fall back into the countries we were.

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 04:11 PM
false flag doesn't mean it's made up :lol:

Hmm... over here, false flag is often used by those who claim that it never happened, no one died, the victims families are all actors, and it's all just a huge scam to take their guns away or some such nonsense

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 04:14 PM
with europe as 1 country the rich got richer and the poor poorer. the rich even got richer on greece's problems. the world needs more diversity, in people and in countries. please let europe fall back into the countries we were.

How far back? Ottoman Empire? Prussia? Austria-Hungary? :D

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 04:27 PM
http://fs.huntingdon.edu/jlewis/syl/ircomp/Maps/WeuroAD1025Lo.gif

Ste117
17-06-16, 06:11 PM
http://fs.huntingdon.edu/jlewis/syl/ircomp/Maps/WeuroAD1025Lo.gif

Not that far I hope :D Full of wars back then, although its nice how you can see how much the continent has changed for better or for worse I dunno.

Craig Forrest
17-06-16, 06:19 PM
I notice that most of Crimea is Russian back then :P

316'sRegen
19-06-16, 12:32 PM
Hmm... over here, false flag is often used by those who claim that it never happened, no one died, the victims families are all actors, and it's all just a huge scam to take their guns away or some such nonsense

That's because over there is mostly idiots mate. Don't even know what a term means.

Alcoolix
20-06-16, 10:05 AM
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/439888image814.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=439888image814.jpg)

Dermotron
22-06-16, 09:33 AM
Interestingly it's going to be a landslide stay from the Scottish electorate according to the polls (whoever fills out these polls I dunno, never been asked to do one in 16 years) but they would surely have most to gain as a nation? They would get back the fisheries that were divided up by EU. Maybe they see it as an easy way to force through another independence vote? Would have thought the Northern counties/provinces would be totally leave based on the fishing industry alone. Could be they diversified so much since fishing was the biggest source of income makes no sense to leave the eurozone

316'sRegen
22-06-16, 10:20 AM
I have also read this Derm, that Scotland will be stay vote safe ground.
It's strange how they want to leave the UK but want to stay in the EU :lol:

The fisheries were Farage's target for the last week, he toured them and shot videos with the people who's livelihood it decimated.

The death of the lady MP at the hands of a prescription drug induced mental case has put a bit of a damper on the whole proceedings though. The issue was being discussed loudly even in the likes of the sandwich shop I go to for lunch but since looney tunes zombie pill guy it hasn't been as loudly debated in the public domain, in my experience anyway. Seems a little strange that episode, why did he give his name as "death to traitors, freedom for Britain" in court?

The leave campaign do want freedom for Britain, but saying that now only conjours thoughts of this fucking crackpot :doh:

Anyway, I still think it will be a very close run thing but I have faith in the British people, we aren't as stupid as we look :D

Craig Forrest
22-06-16, 03:13 PM
I stumbled across this the other day..... an independent fact checking site based in the UK that fact checks both sides of the Brexit debate and calls them out when they aren't being truthful..... apparently it's very impartial and doesn't favour one side over the other.... was a good read as they cover many topics that have been discussed.

https://fullfact.org/

Dermotron
22-06-16, 03:17 PM
Be awesome for us to have companies like this move here (not that I'm a fan of their type of banking and financial gambling)


Morgan Stanley President: We may move from London to Dublin or Frankfurt if #Brexit happens



Total scaremongering I'd imagine but after watching a programme about Irish in Silicone Valley last night be nice to see this little island become a base for some of the world's largest companies other than tech.

Ste117
22-06-16, 03:20 PM
Just listened to Corbyn on the BBC News Channel and the rest of Labour remain leaders, and I have to say after that I am more certain that I am voting to remain, I listened to Gove on Question Time the other day and I still have to listen to the big debate on the BBC last night. As a Labour member this is going to sound a bit one sided but I agree with everything Corbyn said.

Staying to fight for change in the EU instead of running away, protecting our working hours, holidays, unions.
Trying to stamp out zero hours contracts., the freedom of movement to live and work in other EU countries without barriers.

For me I just don't think it is worth the risk of leaving. Why be an outsider in the Europe, why not push for reforms. We leave that push stops. The push to bring these tax havens and tax dodgers who use offshore accounts and stamp that out.

What is to say the minute we leave the EU the government together with the big companies will cut holiday hours and increase the usage of zero hours contracts, there will be nothing to stop it from happening. And do I believe they are capable of doing that, yes I do.

For me its not about how better the country could be, trade agreements its about the security the protection the EU offers and we have being part of it and the freedom of movement to work and live in other EU countries without barriers or uneccessary complications.

And I know other people have their own opinions on why we should leave and respect that and respect anyone's decision to vote for what they believe in, after all that is why we have the privilage to vote. But for myself it's remain.

316'sRegen
22-06-16, 03:53 PM
Had a look through a few pages of the leaflets from both sides being "fact checked"

There's a lot of "most economists agree" or "The Bank of England says" when they are trying to sort out the facts from the propaganda that's been posted through every door in the UK.

I can't get on board with that as fact checking. "most economists agree" is a bullshit statement and Bank of England is hardly impartial, Mark Carney is as much part of the government as George Osborne, whether they categorise him as this or not.

When pulling up the stay campaign on their "every household will be £xxx worse off per year..." statement, the fact checkers quote a vastly lower number than the government was saying. This site says it was between £850 - £1700 per year each household would be losing out on. The government originally said it would be £4300 per household.

This website was created by a charity organisation, started in 2014. I wonder who donates the money for this charity to run?
Here is a list of the trustees:

THE HON. MICHAEL SAMUEL
LORD LIPSEY
PROFESSOR JEAN SEATON
SIMON BRISCOE
LORD SHARKEY
LORD INGLEWOOD
MS Sharon Fae Witherspoon

ebfatz
22-06-16, 04:00 PM
When pulling up the stay campaign on their "every household will be £xxx worse off per year..." statement, the fact checkers quote a vastly lower number than the government was saying. This site says it was between £850 - £1700 per year each household would be losing out on. The government originally said it would be £4300 per household.


I'd rather not be down any amount to be fair, regardless of it being £850 or £4300

ebfatz
22-06-16, 04:08 PM
I think the thing that has swung me was when Corbyn appeared on The Last Leg.

He was more than happy to admit that he was only a "7 to 7 and a half out of ten" enthusiastic about staying in the European Union but he is voting remain because he knows it is good for the country as well as other things that he believes in strongly.

Can't find a video on youtube as they've all been copyrighted by Channel 4 so you'll have to see it through this article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-is-enthusiastic-about-staying-in-the-eu-but-wont-share-a-platform-with-david-a7075626.html

316'sRegen
22-06-16, 04:12 PM
It's impossible to predict my friend, absolutely impossible to accurately predict.

They are trying to scare you.

Cameron threatened pensioners last Sunday on the Marr show - fucking absolute dirtbag bastard he is. THREATENED PENSIONERS!

Craig Forrest
22-06-16, 04:12 PM
Yes well when a majority of economists (who, by the way, are trained to be experts on economy) all agree on the likelihood of something happening, then it's fair to use their expert assessment as a guide to what is likely to happen.... doesn't mean it will, it just means that many people who study these kinds of things for a living agree that there is a good chance of it happening

Consensus among experts is generally a good indication of how things are.... not always of course, but usually

Craig Forrest
22-06-16, 04:13 PM
It's impossible to predict my friend, absolutely impossible to accurately predict.

They are trying to scare you.

Cameron threatened pensioners last Sunday on the Marr show - fucking absolute dirtbag bastard he is. THREATENED PENSIONERS!

And the leave side is scaring people with tales of evil immigrants swamping the poor country

Both sides are using lies and fear to spread their message.... and as you say, nothing is possible to predict with 100% accuracy

Dermotron
22-06-16, 04:22 PM
The people are gone too far one way or the other are not worth listening to in this debate anymore. All the sense is coming from those willing to accept there are pros and cons to staying and leaving

that logic could be applied to most debates though

316'sRegen
22-06-16, 04:55 PM
Yes well when a majority of economists (who, by the way, are trained to be experts on economy) all agree on the likelihood of something happening, then it's fair to use their expert assessment as a guide to what is likely to happen.... doesn't mean it will, it just means that many people who study these kinds of things for a living agree that there is a good chance of it happening

Consensus among experts is generally a good indication of how things are.... not always of course, but usually

Like global warming? (no warming for 17 years) - quick change the name of it to "Climate Change" :lol:
98% of scientists agree.... That is also bullshit, the scientists, or in this case economists, who don't agree do not get asked the question. Their input is not required.

And economists are taught principles of economy, theoretical concepts. They have no clue what could happen in the practicality of a real economy. If these expert economists were so great there would never be market crashes or volatilty, it's ridiculous to expect people to nod their heads and agree with what the "experts" say.

We've all seen this euro trade partnership idea morph into a political union, We don't want it. And we won't be bamboozled with bullshit.

Tomorrow is the time. You will see.

316'sRegen
22-06-16, 05:12 PM
And tales of evil immigrants CF?

As if there is no truth to immigrants coming into the EU? Wise up mate, you show you know nothing about it with statements like that, here, have a few articles to refresh your memory of what has happened in Europe this last year alone:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34818994

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Brussels_bombings

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/636944/Cologne-sex-attacks-list-crimes

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-assaults-sweden-stockholm-music-festival

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/syrian-migrants-and-refugees-march-towards-greece-border-along-a-on-picture-id488901806

Craig Forrest
22-06-16, 06:44 PM
All those Syrian families walking to the UK? Maybe if the West hadn't fucked up their country, they wouldn't have all left.....

The leave side sounds like Donald Trump on this issue.... "Build a wall! Ban all the Muslims!"

UK had a net migration of 333,000 people last year. More than half of those were from non-EU countries..... so it's not freedom of movement within the EU that's causing this.... also, HMRC figures show that migrants who arrived in the UK in the last four years paid £2.5bn more in income tax and national insurance than they took in tax credits and child benefits..... migration actually has a benefit to the economy you know.... and if you believe the crap about Turks suddenly all moving to England, then you're being fooled

Craig Forrest
22-06-16, 06:47 PM
Like global warming? (no warming for 17 years) - quick change the name of it to "Climate Change" :lol:
98% of scientists agree.... That is also bullshit, the scientists, or in this case economists, who don't agree do not get asked the question. Their input is not required.

And economists are taught principles of economy, theoretical concepts. They have no clue what could happen in the practicality of a real economy. If these expert economists were so great there would never be market crashes or volatilty, it's ridiculous to expect people to nod their heads and agree with what the "experts" say.

We've all seen this euro trade partnership idea morph into a political union, We don't want it. And we won't be bamboozled with bullshit.

Tomorrow is the time. You will see.

I forgot that you don't accept the scientific consensus that humans have contributed significantly to changes in the climate, especially since the industrial revolution due to the amount of carbon we've pumped into the atmosphere..... that's fine :ok:

316'sRegen
22-06-16, 07:00 PM
didn't mention Turks because it's unlikely, but there are other countries that are joining soon.
if you don't think the massive increase in immigration from Syria etc has caused all those issues throughout Europe the 4 news articles show then I don't know what to say :noidea:

I and most people were against the wars man, but we won't be made to feel guilty and accept the invaders because of it. We didn't send the bombs or the troops.


"Scientific Consensus" :lol: Any scientist that challenges the consensus gets de-funded and gagged! If there is consensus,which is dubious, the climate change religion means that it is no longer scientific. The models that they use say that CO2 causes feedback loops which cause a runaway greenhouse effect, the models were built in the 80s and they are wrong, proven wrong by data.

Do you know about the ice cores showing that there have been times in the distant past when there was more carbon in the atmosphere than there is now?

Anyway that's a different story but :meh:

We'll see tomorrow.

Ste117
22-06-16, 11:05 PM
Who are we to say to people no you can't come here, isn't that taking away freedm, what people don't realise is that what if it was the other way around, be in their shoes, would you not do the same? I know I would, and that is why I don't see a problem with letting them come here. Some people in this country think it is right to treat others differently because of where they come from and I think that is what we would be doing by denying them the right to come here. What is the other option relocate people and give them their own country like the birth of Israel and the problems that come with that.

ACossu
23-06-16, 11:03 AM
If you think "terrorists" are a product of immigrants you have been sold down the river 316'sRegen.

There's overwhelming evidence that "terrorists" and "terrorist attacks" are coordinated by the very people who pretend to mourn for their victims. It is real scare-mongering - its put in your subconscious without you even thinking about it.

Evidence such as Mosque's (funded by the Saudi's) who support homophobic views and give brochures(no kidding) about radical violence to young men equipping them with pro-Islam mentalities are in your very country!! (Great Britain)

Believe me or not but you can't say (all) the people from Syria who are trying to get away from (us - EU/USA/1st World Counties) bombing/fighting in their country are the cause of multiple organized attacks. It's a bigger picture and I think behind all the statistics - the real reason UK wants out of the EU is because it doesn't want to get painted with the same brush when the pro-Islam armies comes a'knocking. But I suggest we go to the Winchester and wait for all this to blow over :focus:

316'sRegen
23-06-16, 11:41 AM
You think I don't know that western powers armed, funded, nurtured and helped ISIS grow? I know this too well mate. If Russia can knock them out pretty much in 2 weeks and UK/US/France have spent 2 years trying and failing you have to smell a rat and look into the detail a bit more. They aren't trying to fight ISIS over in Syria, they are empowering it to try and topple Assad. Like they did Saddam and Qaddafi. Anyone who stands up to the PetroDollar becomes a target.

I have never said terrorists (it doesn't need parentheses either, they are terrorists) are a product of immigration, not once.

The uncontrolled tsunami of immigration is used as a vector to inject many of these terror cells into the EU, that is what has been said throughout the whole thread and it can't be denied, indeed it was ISIS themselves that told us this was what they were going to do around 18 months - 2 years ago. With freedom of movement they can easily arrange terror attacks anywhere in the EU and we have seen these over the last year. A captured jihadi from the Paris attacks boasted that he was only one of 90 terrorists t (http://www.wsj.com/articles/france-shaken-by-new-terror-revelation-1454622344)hat migrated from Syria and the others would be readying themselves for more attacks.

Anyway the immigration is one of the reasons for leaving but another that is just as important if not more so is that we don't want to be under the European Central Bank.
Centralised power throughout history has never been a good thing and central banks are the cause of all this bombing and fighting in the first place. War is profitable you know.

I just want us to take back our sovereignty from this overreaching inflated bulbous bureaucratic structure they are building. We never signed on to EU governance and we don't want it. We aren't even that keen on Westminster governance here fuck sake! :lol:

If we don't leave, we'll be absorbed into the federation of Europe, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html)will be signed into law, Trans-Pacific Partnership (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership)closely following behind it, then you have trade agreements covering the whole planet. That is not good. The EEC started as a trade deal so you know what will come next, you guessed it - the one world government :fear:

316'sRegen
23-06-16, 11:49 AM
Who are we to say to people no you can't come here, isn't that taking away freedm, what people don't realise is that what if it was the other way around, be in their shoes, would you not do the same? I know I would, and that is why I don't see a problem with letting them come here. Some people in this country think it is right to treat others differently because of where they come from and I think that is what we would be doing by denying them the right to come here. What is the other option relocate people and give them their own country like the birth of Israel and the problems that come with that.

You try and move to USA, Australia, Canada, even Uruguay, New Zealand, any developed non EU country.

Do you think you can just rock up and claim a house, benefits, child support, money for your 4 wives, free healthcare?

No is the answer to that mate. You need a visa at least, you need to be bringing money with you, you need a job secured or a sponsor in place before you even apply.

ACossu
23-06-16, 12:03 PM
Yeah there's nothing good about the EU as it stand currently - but the people need to fight to change it and not run away from it. United Kingdom would be taking a step back by leaving as it seems a quick fix to ongoing problems. If UK were to leave, I still think its highly unlikely, there isn't enough positives to outweigh the obvious decline in tourism, multinationals will be going elsewhere and its only a matter of time before the UK would sign some TTIP alternative behind the scenes..

316'sRegen
23-06-16, 12:15 PM
We can't allow secret backroom corporate deals that are higher law than our own Parliament.

My hope is that in leaving the EU we destroy it, that everyone gets out of it and we can work together without a bloody big centralised organisation. Although I've ranted on about Britain this whole time, it's my view that the EU is bad for all the countries. It's a soviet system in disguise and the disguise is slipping, we can see it now.

ACossu
23-06-16, 12:46 PM
It's not terrible for smaller nations - even such existing in Great Britain such as Wales - However, if said trade deals do become a law then there would be little benefits for the smaller nations.

We should have never accepted it but somehow the Lisbon Treaty passed. This was the biggest mistake of our countries.

I think it's the USA + partners (Israel etc.) who see the EU as a threat - rising tensions from every part of continental Europe are not a coincidence.

Dermotron
23-06-16, 12:48 PM
We should have never accepted it but somehow the Lisbon Treaty passed. This was the biggest mistake of our countries.


The day democracy was shown to be a crock of shit was when we voted No to this only to be 'asked' to re-vote until we said Yes

Fods
23-06-16, 01:06 PM
You try and move to USA, Australia, Canada, even Uruguay, New Zealand, any developed non EU country.

Do you think you can just rock up and claim a house, benefits, child support, money for your 4 wives, free healthcare?

No is the answer to that mate. You need a visa at least, you need to be bringing money with you, you need a job secured or a sponsor in place before you even apply.

It cost my folks $100k to move to Australia.

Erkifino
23-06-16, 10:34 PM
The day democracy was shown to be a crock of shit was when we voted No to this only to be 'asked' to re-vote until we said Yes

Ripping with that one.

316'sRegen
23-06-16, 10:34 PM
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh495/chrismatthewsbelfast/WOW_zpssqmmwvrh.png


:rofl:

Erkifino
23-06-16, 10:40 PM
Aren't those adds based on what you've been googling? Are you gone Ed Norton in fight club?

316'sRegen
23-06-16, 10:55 PM
:lol:

they pumped a few quid into that today i'd say

Dermotron
24-06-16, 12:16 AM
Why would anyone not have AdBlock on a browser these days :confused:

Redknapp69
24-06-16, 12:22 AM
61% at Sunderland vote LEAVE

The £ just took a battering with that result!


My prediction is 55%+ overall to remain - think the leave campaign got a knocking in past few days otherwise I thinkthere would have been 2-3% in it

Craig Forrest
24-06-16, 04:55 AM
So, as I go to bed, it looks like leave will take the vote.... but Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay.... and I bet you that this will lead to a new referendum and Scotland leaving the union..... why would they remain a part of the UK if their desires and their will aren't respected..... They'll leave and rejoin the EU on their own

Now, hopefully the pound doesn't drop too far and the EU payments to NIR and Wales can be replaced without having to cut services or raise taxes... it's going to be some interesting times ahead.... hopefully some of the predicted doom and gloom doesn't come to pass and everything goes smoothly....

Although any result that makes UKIP happy makes me suspicious..... we have their kind over here too ;)

Good luck to you all :ok:

Ste117
24-06-16, 05:08 AM
Going to bed extremely disappointed and worried for the next couple of years and the future. This was not what I voted for and now the task is to convince me and all the other people who voted to try and stop this is right and words and leave voters will not convince me. What will convince me is proving me wrong and proving that it was the right decision so it is pointless anyone who voted leave to try and convince that it was the right decision to leave the EU.

Redknapp69
24-06-16, 05:49 AM
I am surprised . . . .

But this is a clear message what people think about immigration and if this (and previous) govt's did something about our benefit system I do not think we would have seen this vote go the way it has

We could be fucked here . . . .

But at least there will be CM!

Dermotron
24-06-16, 08:07 AM
The benefit system is an odd reason to leave, in or out its the same system.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NB7Jz27b7E

Fods
24-06-16, 08:46 AM
It will change surely...

Dermotron
24-06-16, 08:55 AM
Possibly, question is why didn't it change before now? Benefits/social welfare isn't an EU directive though, it's different country to country and on the whole self governed.

Going to be an interesting 3 months before the UK actually leaves the EU

Alcoolix
24-06-16, 08:56 AM
I work in the only Country in Europe which still is healthly... Switzerland ! and it“s not in the EU...

You did the right choice ! I see a brillant future for GB within only 5 years without EU.

EU is the new German Panzer which slowly kills us.

Ste117
24-06-16, 09:01 AM
Brilliant future?

Our country is a mess, the policies leave voted on we're policies the government could sorted out inside the EU but chose not too. This wasn't about the EU this was about punishing the main parties for poor leadership and now everyone has to suffer. So thanks

Fods
24-06-16, 09:15 AM
:lol: so naive

Felix
24-06-16, 09:19 AM
Can not see many things get better for the UK people now. The "upside" is deciding for your own about immigration but if that's the one big concern for brits they may as well be isolated in their longing for the past days.

ACossu
24-06-16, 10:00 AM
I wasn't expecting this but I know the countries who voted predominantly to remain will be feeling particularly sour. There is little hope for United Kingdom and even less so for the likes of Scotland and Northern Ireland. I can only wonder if this will in turn spark a chain reaction to people wanting to form alliance or break one for that matter from people who do not distill the same views as them.

Is it a good move in Britain's favor? I think it's too early to tell but early signs say nay.

What does it mean for Ireland? Is there possibility of a United Ireland, c'mon lads - b'grand.

Dermotron
24-06-16, 10:01 AM
Democracy at it's finest again. How aren't there laws to pull politicians (anywhere) up on lying like this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP1USSOn9rA

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 10:04 AM
The sky isn't going to fall and Farage deserves praise for his 25 years of campaigning against this EU nonsense. UKIP aren't in government, they just connected with the public on this one issue.

A glorious day for democracy. A great day for the British people :cheer:

Now, I need to point out a few things that I told you over the last month.

We will vote to leave. (pretty obvious one to start :P)
why?
because Leave people care more passionately about the issue and will get their vote out more strongly than stay supporters (this exact thing happened)
David Cameron won't be about for too long after it happens.

Now I'm not psychic, the reason I can analyse and see these things is that I don't spend my Tuesday nights watching a vans trophy 3rd round replay.
I couldn't name you 6 players from last seasons Champions League final, I didn't even watch it.
I spent the last year at least following this closely every step of the way. These are the type of things that I am interested in and spend my time learning about and researching.

Each to their own and all that, I know a lot of people enjoy knowing everything there is to know about football, or cycling, or formula 1, or World of Warcraft for that matter :D

Yesterday was my cup final.

AND WE WON!

:peace:

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 10:05 AM
I wasn't expecting this but I know the countries who voted predominantly to remain will be feeling particularly sour. There is little hope for United Kingdom and even less so for the likes of Scotland and Northern Ireland. I can only wonder if this will in turn spark a chain reaction to people wanting to form alliance or break one for that matter from people who do not distill the same views as them.

Is it a good move in Britain's favor? I think it's too early to tell but early signs say nay.

What does it mean for Ireland? Is there possibility of a United Ireland, c'mon lads - b'grand.

Northern Ireland will be fine, but thanks for the concern :D

Turn off the news channels now and stop repeating the doomsayers constant fear pedalling.

We voted to leave, now let's get on with it.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 10:08 AM
Brilliant future?

Our country is a mess, the policies leave voted on we're policies the government could sorted out inside the EU but chose not too. This wasn't about the EU this was about punishing the main parties for poor leadership and now everyone has to suffer. So thanks

How do you know what people voted on?
You don't.

Ste117
24-06-16, 10:15 AM
Did you not read a few posts up where I said, your not gonna convince me by telling me all this. The only way I am going to be convinced when/ if it pays off further down the line and only then. I didn't vote for this so of course I'm not gonna be happy as far as I'm concerned this country is a mess now

Ste117
24-06-16, 10:18 AM
But I'm done discussing politics with you, we have completely different views but whereas I respect yours you can't respect mine and take me for knowing fuck all because it's not the same opinion as you. I also had to study politics at uni and I also know what I voted for and why I voted for it

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 10:29 AM
The country isn't a mess. I wish you would all cheer up. Maybe in a couple of years when we are operating like the Swiss you'll be happy.

Throwing hissy fits like the PM doesn't get you anywhere. He should of been a man and carried on. Much as I dislike him and don't like to give him credit for anything, old Davey promised the referendum and he followed through on it. Because he was campaigning for the losing side shouldn't be a reason to throw the toys out of the pram.

You accept the result and move on, you delivered on your mandate, the people gave you the answer to the question, now it's time to serve those people's wishes. Roll your sleeves up and get in there.

But no.

I think he sets a really bad example here to be honest.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 10:31 AM
But I'm done discussing politics with you, we have completely different views but whereas I respect yours you can't respect mine and take me for knowing fuck all because it's not the same opinion as you. I also had to study politics at uni and I also know what I voted for and why I voted for it


Ste, you are basically saying that everyone that voted leave did it for the same reason, which is incorrect.

Many many people voted leave to get the sovereignty and self governance back from the EU.

How can you do that from within the EU??

I'm not saying you know nothing but you post stupid things sometimes

Dermotron
24-06-16, 10:36 AM
It's a basic leave before pushed strategy. He promised the referendum. Promised his party they would win. They didn't win. His position was pretty much untenable after that.

I see what you mean but it would have hypocritical to continue. And probably in some way not in best interest of the country since he'd be fighting for things he doesn't really want (well he says he doesn't want but who knows with politicians).



Going to be an interesting few months.

Erkifino
24-06-16, 10:57 AM
In fairness to Dave it's an untenable position. Of he stayed and IF it goes wrong he'll be accused of sabotage.

If I believed in something so wholeheartedly and it didn't go my way I couldn't tow the line because I could never be 100% behind it.

Felix
24-06-16, 10:59 AM
The sky isn't going to fall and Farage deserves praise for his 25 years of campaigning against this EU nonsense. UKIP aren't in government, they just connected with the public on this one issue.

A glorious day for democracy. A great day for the British people :cheer:

Now, I need to point out a few things that I told you over the last month.

We will vote to leave. (pretty obvious one to start :P)
why?
because Leave people care more passionately about the issue and will get their vote out more strongly than stay supporters (this exact thing happened)
David Cameron won't be about for too long after it happens.

Now I'm not psychic, the reason I can analyse and see these things is that I don't spend my Tuesday nights watching a vans trophy 3rd round replay.
I couldn't name you 6 players from last seasons Champions League final, I didn't even watch it.
I spent the last year at least following this closely every step of the way. These are the type of things that I am interested in and spend my time learning about and researching.

Each to their own and all that, I know a lot of people enjoy knowing everything there is to know about football, or cycling, or formula 1, or World of Warcraft for that matter :D

Yesterday was my cup final.

AND WE WON!

:peace:

You sure could be baiting, but you are claiming to be an expert on this issue yet your argument is that "leave people seem to care more, hence they must be right"? :noidea:

ACossu
24-06-16, 11:08 AM
I think most or at least some of the leave voters have voted for the wrong reason or at least without little thought. I don't agree with ever journalist and article that is saying this is the worst thing for the EU since WWII - I think its a change but a change of some sort is needed and can't exactly be branded with being a positive or negative so early. It obviously has serious implications but this is politics and things don't exactly happen overnight.

Regarding David Cameron - He had to resign. I don't think its a form of abandoning ship but just makes no logical sense that he be the one spearheading negotiations for something he didn't initially support.

I think in the next 2 - 3 years we can expect a rocky rocky road for the United Kingdom.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 11:15 AM
maybe I need an interpreter here, why with the constant twisting my words?

I said the leave people are more passionate in the belief that leave is the right thing than stay are.
Tell you what, I'll find the original post I was referring to :ok:

Page 2, Post #48:


I think that the remain camp will have problems getting people out to vote. While it seems to be pretty evenly split at the moment opinion wise, the leave voters are more fervently wanting to make sure they hit the poll booth. People that think staying is a better idea may not be as keen to run down to the local polling station to make sure we definitely stay in.

And at the end of the day, leave was right, it won the vote :confused:

Fods
24-06-16, 11:52 AM
Seeing as though we are in a football forum what impact does this have on football? I've just read this... Is it true?

"Due to the United Kingdom leaving the European Union, Premier League clubs will not be able to sign U18 players from other European countries."

CMCZ
24-06-16, 12:07 PM
So many players in the PL profited from the EU-rule. Now with the EU-exit of GB a lot of players wouldn't get a work permit anymore in the UK. Therefore the strength of the Premier League will surely fade. Not so great news for the English clubs, but great news for the other European clubs. Finally no more talents waisted to English clubs who buy a 33th and a 34th member for their squad. :)

Ste117
24-06-16, 12:14 PM
The country isn't a mess. I wish you would all cheer up. Maybe in a couple of years when we are operating like the Swiss you'll be happy.

Throwing hissy fits like the PM doesn't get you anywhere. He should of been a man and carried on. Much as I dislike him and don't like to give him credit for anything, old Davey promised the referendum and he followed through on it. Because he was campaigning for the losing side shouldn't be a reason to throw the toys out of the pram.

You accept the result and move on, you delivered on your mandate, the people gave you the answer to the question, now it's time to serve those people's wishes. Roll your sleeves up and get in there.

But no.

I think he sets a really bad example here to be honest.

I agree with you on that, I hate him but he has done the wrong thing by resigning

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 12:15 PM
So many players in the PL profited from the EU-rule. Now with the EU-exit of GB a lot of players wouldn't get a work permit anymore in the UK. Therefore the strength of the Premier League will surely fade. Not so great news for the English clubs, but great news for the other European clubs. Finally no more talents waisted to English clubs who buy a 33th and a 34th member for their squad. :)

Could this be better for the England team in 15 years time?

Fods
24-06-16, 12:23 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160624/c52b9f20c60a4fad06d7c49909b16fca.jpg

Dermotron
24-06-16, 12:27 PM
The national team didn't exactly do a whole lot when the English clubs were dominating Europe in the 70's and 80's so not guaranteed to be hugely beneficial. In theory it should of course. While both the FA and EPL exist it's hard to see huge progress that will benefit the national team since the EPL have shown they have no interest in helping out or funding any of the FA's ideas.

Felix
24-06-16, 01:16 PM
maybe I need an interpreter here, why with the constant twisting my words?

I said the leave people are more passionate in the belief that leave is the right thing than stay are.
Tell you what, I'll find the original post I was referring to :ok:

Page 2, Post #48:


And at the end of the day, leave was right, it won the vote :confused:

Ok, you said they are more passionate and seem to be more into their beliefs. Not much of a twist by me but sorry if you think so. Nothing new under the sun there anyway, those who want a change will always be louder than those who want things to stay as they are.

And nah mate, this voting does not constitute what is "right", that we can not know for many years. It just shows that more people of those who voted wanted to leave than stay. Leaving is right for some people and wrong for some people, that's highly subjective.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 01:42 PM
The majority thought it was the right choice :P

:yield:

Ste117
24-06-16, 01:49 PM
The majority thought it was the right choice :P

:yield:

Sorry just over 17 million thought it was the right choice, that is not a majority of the population. There was only over a million difference, I would not say that was a majority.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 01:56 PM
We're not electing a government Ste :D
No seats on offer, can't have a hung referendum.

A majority is a majority in a referendum :ok:

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 01:57 PM
You realise it was mostly Labour voters that made the difference mate don't ya? ;)

Ste117
24-06-16, 02:00 PM
You realise it was mostly Labour voters that made the difference mate don't ya? ;)

Yeah I do, this wasn't about the parties this was about voting what was best for the country. Labour MP's were against themselves same wtih Tories. So What's your point?

Ste117
24-06-16, 02:03 PM
We're not electing a government Ste :D
No seats on offer, can't have a hung referendum.

A majority is a majority in a referendum :ok:

Doesn't matter it still wasn't a majority, if it was 60-40 or something like that then I would say it was a majority. So your point is still wrong, there wasn't a massive gap between remain and leave so I don't know where you get your majority from.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 02:03 PM
My point is do you still feel the same pride to be a paid up member of the Labour party?

I suppose Corbyn was kind of neither here nor there with it anyway, he seemed not to want to get too involved from what I could tell.

Just wondering if your disappointed in your fellow Labour guys?

Ste117
24-06-16, 02:06 PM
My point is do you still feel the same pride to be a paid up member of the Labour party?

I suppose Corbyn was kind of neither here nor there with it anyway, he seemed not to want to get too involved from what I could tell.

Just wondering if your disappointed in your fellow Labour guys?

I'm not disappointed with those who campaigned for leave, they campaigned for what they thought was right for the country. I am disappointed in Corbyn a bit though, I thought his campaign came too late although it was strong when it did come. I do believe he is at fault for it but I don't think he should be removed as party leader as I still believe in him although that believe has dropped slightly. I felt Corbyn should have nailed his point sooner and let everyone know sooner what he was campaigning for.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 02:08 PM
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh495/chrismatthewsbelfast/majority_zpsx2czxfpn.png

Ste117
24-06-16, 02:08 PM
For my area to vote leave too shows that as it is a strong Labour area has been for over 10 years, that hurt and worried me a lot.

Ste117
24-06-16, 02:10 PM
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh495/chrismatthewsbelfast/majority_zpsx2czxfpn.png

We have a different view of majority then because for me that wasn't a majority, there are still 14, 15 million people very unhappy and concerned with the result and the future.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 02:18 PM
That's the dictionary definition chum. Referenda can be won by a single vote. I don't know if that would hold up but a million votes is definitely a majority.

Anyway about your Labour stronghold upsetting you with their votes:

This is what I'm saying to you.

It was Labour voters that made sure we left. Throughout the whole country.

Ste117
24-06-16, 02:23 PM
That's the dictionary definition chum. Referenda can be won by a single vote. I don't know if that would hold up but a million votes is definitely a majority.

Anyway about your Labour stronghold upsetting you with their votes:

This is what I'm saying to you.

It was Labour voters that made sure we left. Throughout the whole country.

It was their choice, their choice was different to mine. I don't agree with their choice but what can I do, just disappointed that we have taken this uneccessary gamble.

djole2mcloud
24-06-16, 03:07 PM
personally,congratulations to the british people...you have made a right decision to leave EU...
false utopia made of mambo jumbo promises...all western european countries had strong economies much before EU,and most
important before introducing EURO and before expansion of EU with new members mostly from the east...
all eastern economies were awful after USSR collapse and wars on Balkan...
Nigel Farage had a strong point saying...''usa and europe torn apart yugoslavia,divided serbs,croats,muslims...all of them fought for independence
and now we are forcing them to live together again in some artificial union''
my opinion was that EU was good without eastern european nations,without euro,without schengen....introducing euro robbed us (we lived ten times better with deutsche mark),schengen brought lot more troubles as for us ,so for us...

djole2mcloud
24-06-16, 03:16 PM
Ste, you are basically saying that everyone that voted leave did it for the same reason, which is incorrect.

Many many people voted leave to get the sovereignty and self governance back from the EU.

How can you do that from within the EU??

I'm not saying you know nothing but you post stupid things sometimes

totally agree with you...every country must have own sovereignty and governance...
that why i hope my country will never join EU...as i said...EU is a false utopia...corrupted and not functional...
EU in current state is bad same as communism was just before collapse...and basic principals of EU are very likely to communism...
i don't need some idiot prick from brussels to tell me can i or can't i make a jam in my own garden from my own fruit...

Ste117
24-06-16, 03:36 PM
Age Group by votes:

18-24- Remain: 64%, Leave: 24%
25- 49- Remain: 45%, Leave: 39%
50-64- Remain: 35%, Leave: 49%
65+- Remain: 33%, Leave: 58%

As a 24 year old who voted remain I feel let down by the older generation who won't live to feel the consequences. Call it what you like but I am not the only one who feels like that.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 03:54 PM
Right, you are disappointed with the result, we get it.

In a couple of years time I predict that the EU won't even exist and you will wonder why you were desperate to be part of it. You will still be able to travel anywhere you want and be welcomed.

The older people have seen consolidation of power in their lifetime before and they have the experience and knowledge to recognise it. I also think it's the British way that when the PM blatantly threatens your pensions on Sunday morning politics shows, you vote against the cunt and end his career there and then :lol:

Don't be mopey Ste, you will reap the benefits in a few years mate, you'll see. This is the best thing I have ever seen in politics, very proud today.

It also broke down that people (like me) who didn't go to uni, voted mostly for leave. They call it the "education" variable but to be honest it's the people that left school at 16 and went straight to work that know more about how the real world operates. They pay taxes etc and know more about life than the "educated" gap year hipsters.

Ste117
24-06-16, 03:57 PM
Right, you are disappointed with the result, we get it.

In a couple of years time I predict that the EU won't even exist and you will wonder why you were desperate to be part of it. You will still be able to travel anywhere you want and be welcomed.

The older people have seen consolidation of power in their lifetime before and they have the experience and knowledge to recognise it. I also think it's the British way that when the PM blatantly threatens your pensions on Sunday morning politics shows, you vote against the cunt and end his career there and then :lol:

Don't be mopey Ste, you will reap the benefits in a few years mate, you'll see. This is the best thing I have ever seen in politics, very proud today.

It also broke down that people (like me) who didn't go to uni, voted mostly for leave. They call it the "education" variable but to be honest it's the people that left school at 16 and went straight to work that know more about how the real world operates. They pay taxes etc and know more about life than the "educated" gap year hipsters.

I was working before I chose to go to uni, I hope your right well I have to hope your right now but I will keep my stance until the signs begin to show that it was the right thing to do and only then will I begin to accept it. I need to be convinced but I am willing to allow myself to be convinced but will take time and the positive signs to show it.

Dermotron
24-06-16, 04:00 PM
Age Group by votes:

18-24- Remain: 64%, Leave: 24%
25- 49- Remain: 45%, Leave: 39%
50-64- Remain: 35%, Leave: 49%
65+- Remain: 33%, Leave: 58%

As a 24 year old who voted remain I feel let down by the older generation who won't live to feel the consequences. Call it what you like but I am not the only one who feels like that.


These are great 'oh look' numbers but they don't show the volumes that voted in each category. 18-24 might have been a tiny fraction of total vote. Historically, in most elections it is

Baz
24-06-16, 04:02 PM
For my area, I am quite shocked we voted out given how much good ESF funded projects etc have given us. I would have preferred to stay but i'll give these idiots in power a chance to prove the 48% wrong and make a good job of this.

It's going to be an uncertain few years until everything gets finalised etc, I just hope that the government takes their time in order to get the right deals for the UK as a whole. I will allow them that chance before I look at alternative options haha.

Plus Boris Johnson can fuck right off, he isn't the right man to lead our country.

Craig Forrest
24-06-16, 04:15 PM
If y'all vote in Boris Johnson as the next PM it will be funnier than Trump winning in the US

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 04:22 PM
Theresa May for PM

Baz
24-06-16, 04:25 PM
Theresa May for PM

I'm not a Tory so would have no idea who would be the best bet in all honesty. Boris is too radical to be able to unite the UK again. We need a people person to be in charge, d the Tories have one of them to hand? Do they have a Corbin type?

I heard Theresa May's odd's really shortened yesterday too so she's doing something right.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 04:30 PM
She's just been in a few different cabinet positions, Deputy PM included. Probably one of the most experienced they have.

I get the feeling she would take no shit from anyone and could put a good team together and command the respect of the party.

disclaimer - I'm not a Tory either btw :D

J.D.
24-06-16, 04:30 PM
Age Group by votes:

18-24- Remain: 64%, Leave: 24%
25- 49- Remain: 45%, Leave: 39%
50-64- Remain: 35%, Leave: 49%
65+- Remain: 33%, Leave: 58%

As a 24 year old who voted remain I feel let down by the older generation who won't live to feel the consequences. Call it what you like but I am not the only one who feels like that.

How did they came up with those numbers, I'm pretty sure there was no age box on the ballot.

If a vast majority of people between 18 and 49 voted to remain, like those numbers indicate, or the turn up for those group age were catastrophic or you have a lot of old people in the U.K, or those numbers are b.s.

Anyway, at 38, I must be old too, 'cause I would have vote leave, if I had been British. You can not pass on an occasion for less bureaucracy, less rules and more liberty.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 04:43 PM
sure you get a ballot card :ok:

They know who you are :scared:

Craig Forrest
24-06-16, 04:45 PM
What the fuck, another Canadian?

Ste117
24-06-16, 04:53 PM
We don't get to choose the new PM, there will be no general election.

J.D.
24-06-16, 05:24 PM
66 posts, I'm quite active... or maybe not compare to the other Canadians.

Jokerjake7
24-06-16, 05:31 PM
For those curious I believe those voting by age statistics posted are from YouGov after they polled ~1200 people on how they were voting (they were no exit polls, I think the survey took place before the date of the referendum but can;t be bothered to look).

Of course 1200 voters out of 36 million or so may not be accurate but we'll never knowI guess.

colml
24-06-16, 05:48 PM
Am I the only one who sees the irony in all these people saying they want to elect their own leaders and yet the head of state is a monarchy?
Anyway, Farage said a few weeks ago that if Remain won there would be a massive push for a second referendum, so will there be a big push for another one now?

Ste117
24-06-16, 06:10 PM
Queen Elizabeth is a puppet Queen

Baz
24-06-16, 06:33 PM
Am I the only one who sees the irony in all these people saying they want to elect their own leaders and yet the head of state is a monarchy?
Anyway, Farage said a few weeks ago that if Remain won there would be a massive push for a second referendum, so will there be a big push for another one now?

Farage also said 52-48 would be enough to warrant another vote....

Dermotron
24-06-16, 06:57 PM
A good time to buy some UK stocks and currency then?

Erkifino
24-06-16, 07:03 PM
Shoulda bought dollars yesterday and stg today. Coulda made a nice sum. That or got 9/1 on leave.

Baz
24-06-16, 07:11 PM
Shoulda bought dollars yesterday and stg today. Coulda made a nice sum. That or got 9/1 on leave.

I took that bet haha was too good a risk not too.

316'sRegen
24-06-16, 07:46 PM
buy the pound for the next month or two.

They should have activated article 50 immediately.
After the three months until Cameron steps down is a delay tactic.

Craig Forrest
24-06-16, 09:06 PM
buy the pound for the next month or two.

They should have activated article 50 immediately.
After the three months until Cameron steps down is a delay tactic.

Completely agree with you on that :ok:

Erkifino
24-06-16, 09:38 PM
The next government has no obligation to invoke Article 50 either, right?

Ste117
24-06-16, 09:48 PM
Cameron didn't have to invoke if he didn't want to. He could have been a complete arse and gone well I think it is best we stay in and therefore I am not invoking leave, but it would have caused a revolt.

Craig Forrest
24-06-16, 09:51 PM
There is no "obligation" to invoke article 50. The referendum simply provides direction to the government

colml
25-06-16, 11:14 AM
Ian Paisley Jnr is advising people to get an Irish passport if they can. Never thought I'd see the day

316'sRegen
25-06-16, 12:25 PM
The next government has no obligation to invoke Article 50 either, right?

i'd like to see them try and sell that to us :D

Fods
26-06-16, 04:37 AM
https://fbcdn-photos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/13465932_543652565840343_209323127847629134_n.jpg? oh=d09f5971d9aceddf5bc6b0124836b78b&oe=58031778&__gda__=1472335901_7c8db9794148703b2f05b1392a1806d 0

Craig Forrest
26-06-16, 05:08 AM
Saw this:


If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.


With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.


How?


Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.


And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.


The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.


The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?


Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?


Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.


If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.


The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.


When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.


All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne.


And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

Ste117
26-06-16, 06:08 PM
Saw this:




[COLOR=#666666][FONT=helvetica][FONT=inherit]



Well done Cameron, I may not like but I salute him for what he has done to protect our country something I though he could never do, he is a smart thinker and that proves it. I don't think anyone will have the guts. It will also cause a lot of protests so we are still in the EU for three months at least. It is what I have said to people lately as well that the government had no obligation to follow the people and Cameron has shown that he didn't want to do that.

316'sRegen
26-06-16, 06:41 PM
:rofl:

If you think we're not leaving because soppy Dave quit think again.

CF - you saw this, but where did you see it? Who's opinion is it?

Craig Forrest
26-06-16, 06:46 PM
No fucking clue at all Chris..... I just thought it was interesting..... raises some good points.... whoever the next Tory leader is, he (or she) will have to be the one to either trigger article 50 (which they may not be willing to do), or say that they are going to ignore the result of the vote (which they also may not be willing to do).....

Cameron won't do it, that much we know..... so the bottom line is that it will be up to the next PM.... and what they do is anyone's guess....

Patinoz
26-06-16, 06:51 PM
one way or another, pressure is being put on from the rest of europe to leave swiftly.


and obviously they are well advised to not make it too pleasant for britain to deter others wanting to follow suit

316'sRegen
26-06-16, 06:55 PM
I know they are saying this was an "advisory" referendum, but I really do find it funny that anyone thinks the next leader has some kind of choice here. They don't.

I think there could be a general election though, I felt like Dave Cameron was calling for exactly that when I listened to his speech.

That seems written from the perspective of a petulant Remain voter, still pissed about the result, which was why I asked.

"Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements"
Load of nonsense, probably written by someone who has never been in Scotland or Ireland.

We're going to see a lot of fear porn over the next months.
It didn't work before the vote and won't work now but it will still continue.
I wouldn't pay any heed to it.

316'sRegen
26-06-16, 06:57 PM
one way or another, pressure is being put on from the rest of europe to leave swiftly.


and obviously they are well advised to not make it too pleasant for britain to deter others wanting to follow suit

Holland are up next.
Pressure won't stop the populations in these places from realising that the EU is an idea whose time is up.

Patinoz
26-06-16, 06:58 PM
in what ways does the european union negatively affect your life, chris?

CMCZ
26-06-16, 07:04 PM
Holland are up next.
Pressure won't stop the populations in these places from realising that the EU is an idea whose time is up.

Holland can't. There is no law for such a referendum here. I think EU will punish GB very hard to scare all other countries to leave. The propaganda machine is already working hard in NL to keep the people scared and motivated to stay in Europe.

Altough it's not really working, the people don't believe the media anymore in NL.

316'sRegen
26-06-16, 07:08 PM
by imposing laws on my country that no-one here voted for.
by stopping us from having a say about immigration to our own country.

It is trying to become a federal state, absorbing all the member nations and taking away their sovereignty.
Overall it is a completely anti democratic institution, the commissioners are appointed and they are the ones that pass the laws, the EU is a law unto itself and isn't accountable to the people who live in it.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of the EU and will enjoy watching it disappear over the coming months/years

Patinoz
26-06-16, 07:22 PM
by imposing laws on my country that no-one here voted for.
by stopping us from having a say about immigration to our own country.

It is trying to become a federal state, absorbing all the member nations and taking away their sovereignty.
Overall it is a completely anti democratic institution, the commissioners are appointed and they are the ones that pass the laws, the EU is a law unto itself and isn't accountable to the people who live in it.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of the EU and will enjoy watching it disappear over the coming months/years

so which of those laws have and are negatively affecting your life? i dare to say that none of us even knows a third of the regulations passed and if they are beneficial or not.

regarding the immigration, a lot of eu members have a very big say regarding their own immigration procedures. hungary jumps to mind for example.

i think a lot of people voted with their heart without actually delving into the matter. and to make such a fundamentally important decision based on emotions is a bit silly.

Craig Forrest
26-06-16, 07:36 PM
This is the kind of thing that makes me sad.... the amount of ignorance on display is outstanding.... obviously I'm not lumping all the "leave" people in to this group, but it's still depressing and may lead to the rise of more right-wing fanatics being elected across Europe...

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

Ste117
26-06-16, 07:49 PM
This is the kind of thing that makes me sad.... the amount of ignorance on display is outstanding.... obviously I'm not lumping all the "leave" people in to this group, but it's still depressing and may lead to the rise of more right-wing fanatics being elected across Europe...

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

Yeah I seen that before and was very disturbed by it. Nationalism is on the rise too.

ebfatz
26-06-16, 09:10 PM
The two things I wanted to add, CF has beten me to it.

The Cameron stitching up Boris's career by resigning made me laugh. And the fact that even if it's not Boris, whoever the Tories choose as their new leader and thus PM, may not invoke anyway and say the whole referendum is advisory.

The second was the collection of tweets showing the racism. I mean seriously. The fact that even if we do activate Article 50, it'll take a minimum of 2 years to draw up the terms of the exit. If that kind of thing happens for two years then there could be major issues.

Rapinoe
26-06-16, 10:23 PM
regarding the immigration, a lot of eu members have a very big say regarding their own immigration procedures. hungary jumps to mind for example.

Which they're doing entirely off their own hook and are most certainly not being rewarded for by the EU, because they're not doing as they're told...

316'sRegen
27-06-16, 11:59 AM
so which of those laws have and are negatively affecting your life? i dare to say that none of us even knows a third of the regulations passed and if they are beneficial or not.

regarding the immigration, a lot of eu members have a very big say regarding their own immigration procedures. hungary jumps to mind for example.

i think a lot of people voted with their heart without actually delving into the matter. and to make such a fundamentally important decision based on emotions is a bit silly.

I find it interesting that you think you know why people voted.
You aren't in the country, I don't know why you think you know the feeling in the country or what people are thinking.

Anyway you are trying to pull me up on the details of the millions of laws the EU has imposed over it's member states. I don't know every regulation and law but if you read back a bit in the thread there was a post with lots of companies that were helped to moved out of the UK and into Europe with EU funding. The fishermen of the UK aren't allowed to fish their own waters. The steel industry of UK was not protected against cheap Chinese steel, the farmers are constantly having to deal with more regulations making it difficult for them to make a living. Just because I personally am not affected by these ridiculous regulations doesn't mean I won't care about it. These British industries being crushed affects us all here. We voted this way to take Britain out of this Soviet bloc, concentrated centralised power has never been a good thing throughout history.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it" (George Santayana)

But you ignored the more important point that it is anti-democratic and the Commission is unelected, that member states will lose their power to govern their own territory as the EU "project" continues, expands and consolidates and centralises power.
What the UK has voted for in the referendum is Democracy to be restored here. I look at the EU as the new empire, brought about not as the old empires with blood and steel, but in a new way through stealthier economic wranglings. Obviously so do a lot of others now, not just in the UK but throughout Europe.


We aren't a colony of the EU and never will be. We can govern our own country and we have decided that is for the best.
We don't hate Europe or Europeans, we aren't racist or xenophobic.

We just want Britain to be governed in Britain, and now it will be.
They can drag their feet and try and delay this but the people will accept nothing less.