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Thread: WIBWOB Queries

  1. #26
    Jesus is offline Official Challenge Team
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus View Post
    Yeah, I've read this thread a few times. There are one or two directions, but I was hoping for something more in-depth. For those when develop those killer tactics, I was wondering exactly how the approach it from a clean slate. I know there's a lot of trial and error involved, but I also expect there are some solid base methods too.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Conquest View Post
    Yeah, I've read this thread a few times. There are one or two directions, but I was hoping for something more in-depth. For those when develop those killer tactics, I was wondering exactly how the approach it from a clean slate. I know there's a lot of trial and error involved, but I also expect there are some solid base methods too.
    A lot of the killer tactics are built off the back of 4141_iodine that Tapani released before he disappeared last time. As a result we got a whole new flood of game breaking tactics that made WW2 Hard Tackling look poor. I guess the key is to do as you said and trial and error it.

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    It's not much given the match engine is full of holes, but I do take pride in the fact my tactics are not based on Iodine. I still massively overachieve like everyone else, but at least I can't do stuff like winning FA Cup with a Conference team, which is the norm for Iodine based tactics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by churky View Post
    It's not much given the match engine is full of holes, but I do take pride in the fact my tactics are not based on Iodine. I still massively overachieve like everyone else, but at least I can't do stuff like winning FA Cup with a Conference team, which is the norm for Iodine based tactics.
    I totally respect that. I'm in the same boat. Ten years in, my Hayes side are established top-flight competition winners, but I am just shy of 'dominating' the game. However, it wouldn't be the same using a tactic developed by someone else. Furthermore, I like to use tactics that look somewhat realistic in keeping with the spirit of the game; none of this two defenders stuff. What's the point of playing otherwise? I don't expect to ever develop a super-tactic as I really don't have the man-hours to dedicate to the testing, but was wanting to know what the known quantities were (e.g. What and how much effect do options such as 'Pass to' have, viz WWW2?). Admittedly, my basic wib-wob positioning was developed by looking at the tactics of others, but the final positons and fine-tuning (whatever effect it may or may not be having) is all me.

    There are certain things that seem to be almost a given, such as the best team instructions, cram your opponent's box with players in the top wib screen, cram your own box with players in the bottom wob screen, odd number of strikers, even number of defenders . . . I could go on. Still it's fun to break the 'rules' and see what else works. What I really don't know is how much difference it makes, for example, to move a player that one more increment to the left or right on a wib-wob screen, or how an asymmetrical run pattern will affect things.

    Realistically, you need to be thinking in terms of zeros and ones, not in terms of eleven men running around a field.

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    wib/wob Arrows?

    Hey guys,
    a championship manager 01-02 player sent me his save game about something. I helped him. After that I saw arrows at wib/wob.

    http://i62.tinypic.com/oigok9.jpg
    http://i58.tinypic.com/2ymy7id.jpg

    It seems very useful for creating tactics. Can you explain how I use that?

    PS: I've just solved the problem. I used reflect button. Sorry for wasting your time.
    Last edited by alay; 03-10-14 at 12:10 PM.

  7. #32
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    The danger of WibWob Tactic

    I read that WibWob tactics are more effective than the default tactics and make you win too many games so that it is not realistic anymore and it takes away the fun.
    Is that true?

    Are there realistic WibWob tactics?

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    It doesn't take the fun away, it is just a different kind of fun.

    There are lots of shitty wibwob tactics that will do you as bad as a non-wibwob

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    Testing WibWob tactics with and without the Tapani 2.19 patch

    I have been testing some WibWob tactics both with the default program (against the default AI tactics) and with the Tapani 2.19 patch @speedx200 (against the same default AI tactics).

    Can it be that the WibWob tactics I am testing (all against the same save-file obviously) achieve better results when I use the Tapani 2.19 patch at high speed?

    That would seem odd but that seems to be the case after the first series of tests.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsami View Post
    I have been testing some WibWob tactics both with the default program (against the default AI tactics) and with the Tapani 2.19 patch @speedx200 (against the same default AI tactics).

    Can it be that the WibWob tactics I am testing (all against the same save-file obviously) achieve better results when I use the Tapani 2.19 patch at high speed?

    That would seem odd but that seems to be the case after the first series of tests.

    The Tapani 2.19 patch is just much more easy than the Others cause other teams have no training

    every tactic perform better than the other Patches.

    the new Patches tapani 2.19.1 and 2.19.2 make the game harder cause the training issue is fixed.

    I just tested "tiki taka" tactic on 2.19.2 and i can t get good results cause the game is different.

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  12. #36
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    I was more thinking about what the Tapani patch does when you are on holiday.
    Holidaying seems to be more effective with the Tapani patch.
    Is that correct?

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    I've seen no difference down the years. What makes a difference on holidaying is the quality of your assistant and his preferred attacking attitude. That would be an update thing.

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  15. #38
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    I read somewhere: "Tapani made a quick guide for world domination, which includes holidaying and requires a good plug-and-play tactic. I'll present a quick and simple way to play this game in order to win anything you want without holidaying or using a super tactic."

    Where I can find that guide? And why do they mention holidaying as a secret to 'world domination'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by samsami View Post
    I read somewhere: "Tapani made a quick guide for world domination, which includes holidaying and requires a good plug-and-play tactic. I'll present a quick and simple way to play this game in order to win anything you want without holidaying or using a super tactic."

    Where I can find that guide? And why do they mention holidaying as a secret to 'world domination'?
    Think its was Churky and its here: http://www.champman0102.co.uk/showthread.php?t=777

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  18. #40
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    You're quoting Win Everything With Anyone - A Quick Guide - by churky. As for the Tapani guide, Aula reposted it here

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  20. #41
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    Thanks!

    I still get strange results testing WibWob tactics with the 2.19 Patch installed and at speed x200

    These are the points for several runs with the same tactic and with the same save-file:
    54-63-71-82

    Why does it go up by ten points each next time?

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    Injuries can play big role. Plus if you didn't alter Assistant Manager attributes, you will get much more derivation in results.

    That's something Tapani noticed. His 4141_iodine (not IodineCF mind you) is the most stable tactic you can find. The derivation of points is pretty similar across the tests.

    As to your other question, there is no secret. Holidaying is just a fast forward way to dominate the World in CM. That doesn't mean you can't do it playing the game normally, following same principles.

    It's just that with holidaying you can do 100 seasons in 8hrs. Just load the tactic up and that's it. Go on holiday (CM0102 is easy enough game to beat, after all it's 15 years old game ).

    Och and speaking about Tapani, I believe he said that doing 10 single seasons test of tactic just gives you an idea if tactic is good or not. Doing over 10000 seasons would give you clear sight if the tactic is stable or not .

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  23. #43
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    Okay, 10 seasons it will be then

    I still find it strange that the derivation is so drastic (as the assistant manager cannot change the tactic) but with 10 games I suppose the average will be realistic then.

  24. #44
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    Hmm, he actually can... To some extent change settings (not wib/wob - as that can only be done by managers).

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  26. #45
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    Assistants can change team instructions and often do. A lot depends on their preferred style and their tactical knowledge.

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    The main benefit of using the Tapani patch is the option to use Development Mode, this allows you to run X amount of instances of the game at once. I found 5 instances on a semi decent Vista laptop with 4gb of RAM ok to work with so I'd imagine any 64bit iCore would plough through them.

    5 instances took ~11 minutes to run, so that's 5 unique seasons running at once. That was on a trimmed database though.

  28. #47
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    The other problem is that some of the instances seem to get confused and there are issues with temp files writing. I don't know if Tapani 2.19 fixes those but this is why I do individual tests in the OTL.

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    I had the same problem trying to run multiple tests. So I do individual tests now.

    The reason I am doing this testing is that I find the Harder AI Tactics pack by info0 (to be found under downloads) a really nice challenge but the tactics in the pack vary too much in strength (for my taste) so that if a top team happens to choose one of the weaker tactics they suffer and if a weaker team happens to choose one of the killer tactics, they outperform.

    That may keep things interesting (to say the least) but less realistic than I wanted.

    So I am making two sets of AI tactics now, one really strong set (including the top tactics in info0's pack) and one in-between set.

    Based on benchmark tests, using FC Utrecht as a save-file, the default tactics score about 50 points in a season.
    My tests show that the top tactics in info0's pack score 80-90 points.
    The weakest tactics in the pack score less than 70 points, occasionally even slightly less than 60 points.

    So I want to make a hard pack (>75 roughly) and a weaker pack (<75 roughly)

    How does that sound? And how can I upload it to the Downloads section?

    Samsami

  30. #49
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    Upload it here first and if it's any good after a few people have tried them it can be added to the download section


    Alternative there's a stickied thread called 'Add your Tactic to our Downloads"

    http://www.champman0102.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5792

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  32. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsami View Post
    I had the same problem trying to run multiple tests. So I do individual tests now.

    The reason I am doing this testing is that I find the Harder AI Tactics pack by info0 (to be found under downloads) a really nice challenge but the tactics in the pack vary too much in strength (for my taste) so that if a top team happens to choose one of the weaker tactics they suffer and if a weaker team happens to choose one of the killer tactics, they outperform.

    That may keep things interesting (to say the least) but less realistic than I wanted.

    So I am making two sets of AI tactics now, one really strong set (including the top tactics in info0's pack) and one in-between set.

    Based on benchmark tests, using FC Utrecht as a save-file, the default tactics score about 50 points in a season.
    My tests show that the top tactics in info0's pack score 80-90 points.
    The weakest tactics in the pack score less than 70 points, occasionally even slightly less than 60 points.

    So I want to make a hard pack (>75 roughly) and a weaker pack (<75 roughly)

    How does that sound? And how can I upload it to the Downloads section?

    Samsami
    However, if I remember I made 2 packs. One with wib/wob tactics which was made rather for fun using top tactics from OTL and some Tapani older tactics.

    The second one was non wib/wob pack and truth be told, no matter what team I have chosen or what wib/wob tac I used, it didn't do well. AI takes huge advantage of non wib/wob tactics and it shows. The only problem I had was not so many goals scored (but then again, defensively they are v. solid solid xD).

    I am guessing it's about WIB/WOB version of the pack. That wasn't really made for realism sake, but more like individual challenge and testing ground .

    Here is the Non Wib/Wob pack:

    http://www.mediafire.com/download/u9...WobGoodies.rar

    It is v. enjoyable . Too enjoyable even.

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