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Thread: Updated default tactics?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by canteiro67 View Post
    Is is possible to replace the default tactics for the tactics in the ultimate packs? So every AI team uses them.
    Do you mean replace the default tactics by harder/better tactics so that all teams operated by the computer use them?

    You can do that by downloading Harder AI tactics or by downloading my tactics-80 set. That is the hardest set.

    http://www.champman0102.co.uk/downlo...do=file&id=221

    Copy all the files to the Data folder (that will overwrite the default tactics)

    Remember that it makes the computer opponents much better.

    So only do that if you use really good tactics yourself.
    Last edited by Dermotron; 08-04-15 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #52
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    The Ultimate tactic packs would probably be a bit easier to beat making the gameplay a little better imo. To beat an iodine based tactic you'd likely need another iodine based tactic.

    Here's how to go about changing them yourself - http://www.champman0102.co.uk/showth...7200#post87200

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    The Ultimate tactic packs would probably be a bit easier to beat making the gameplay a little better imo. To beat an iodine based tactic you'd likely need another iodine based tactic.

    Here's how to go about changing them yourself - http://www.champman0102.co.uk/showth...7200#post87200
    The link in the download section does not work!

  4. #54
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    Fixed

    Damn url tags

  5. #55
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    Hi, I would like to change tactics myself (because I find the "Harder AI Tactics" pack too hard), but I can't find anywhere the HEX editor. Could someone help me? Thank you in avance.

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  8. #57
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    Did some benchmarking for this a while back, but never posted the results.

    Ran all default and preset tactics (on the greek save from this thread) about 100 times each.

    The results were:

    Human selectable ("default") tactics:
    Spoiler!


    AI ("preset") tactics:
    Spoiler!



    For a "intermediate" tactic pack my idea was to "even out" the computer tactics. So most tactics are about as good (otherwise clubs that happen to pick a good tactic will do better than they deserve).
    To do this my plan was to bring up the level of the bad tactics to the level of the better ones.

    Most default and preset tactics score 25-40 points, so my vision was to bring up the intermediate pack to around 40 pts. (Maybe a little less for the default ones, and a little more to preset). Also the default (human selectable) tactics should be w/o wibwob and having team instructions reset to default (Normal, Mixed, Normal, No, No, No, No).

    Never got the time to dig into this, and cannot see when I will get around to it ... we should replace several of the computer formations with more modern ones.

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  10. #58
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    Surprising to see the default 4-3-3 easily the best human selectable tactic, and by some distance too!

    I'd have thought 4-1-3-2 would have took that title.

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    If it's the 433 from the Oct 2015 data update it's one that info0 created. So it has additions like short passing, pressing, offside trap along with everyone zonal marking and no-one doing useless tasks like crossing or long shots
    Last edited by Dermotron; 20-11-15 at 05:46 PM.

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    AMC

  13. #60
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    That new tactic must have been there longer than Oct 2015?


    Also, I think it is "too good", in the sense that teams that end up using it have an unfair edge against teams who don't (with respect to promotions etc).

    From the default tactics (as shipped) 4132 is the best.

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    Ok, got around and built a set of tactics that are hopefully more up-to-date than the default tactics. However my knowledge of modern formations is limited, so there is change I messed up.

    The experimental new set of PCTs can be downloaded from http://tapani.homeftp.org/cm/new_pct_v0.2.zip.
    To test this pack, copy the files to the Data folder, and start a new game.

    The files are named as the original game's tactics, otherwise the game will not load them. The formations inside are sometimes different from the name (we really do not need 7-8 different 532s).

    Their range (best - worst) is now less, down to some 14 pts (from 27).
    Spoiler!


    These are not intended to be harder tactics, but they might have ended up slightly harder than the originals. All these tactics use default instructions (normal, no pressing, direct passing etc). The default tactics for human selection are all non wib-wobbed.
    While building these, quite often I even had to nerf tactics .. which is an unusual thing to do. Still, the top two tactics still need a little nerfing (and it would be nice to improve a little on the bottom ones).

    What I think I notice from running many seasons with these is that there is less mobility between the leagues. The top teams stay on top, and for instance English premiership is not full of weird teams (maybe just a few) after 20 seasons. This would make sense, if all tactics are more equal, the player quality matters more. More testing is needed though.

    If anyone tests these, let me know. A harder version is easy to do - just turn on pressing etc in all the tactics :p

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  17. #62
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    Spoiler!


    Some interesting variations. Most of the Premier League teams went with 4141.

    Southampton won the league which I don't think I can recall seeing in the first season (you usually get Arsenal, Man City or Chelsea there).

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  19. #63
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    January 2017

    Sunderland sits at the top of the league just after New Year with Arsenal at the opposite end (managed by Theo Walcott). United are also battling relegation too with manager Diego Simeone feeling the heat. Most teams prefer a standard 442 or a 451 but there are some teams throwing a few surprise formations out there.

    Spoiler!


    Spoiler!

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    Thank you for the test. Surprising that some of the big clubs collapse so quickly. From winning the league in 2015 to relegation 2017 (Man Utd).

    Any indication onto why?
    Is it because the manager uses a subpar tactic?
    Or that the good default players retire and the replacement (hired by computer) players are not up to the task?

  21. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    Thank you for the test. Surprising that some of the big clubs collapse so quickly. From winning the league in 2015 to relegation 2017 (Man Utd).

    Any indication onto why?
    Is it because the manager uses a subpar tactic?
    Or that the good default players retire and the replacement (hired by computer) players are not up to the task?
    Well the manager is using a 442 (with forward arrows on the ML/MR) but so are a lot of the other managers in the league (Sunderland who are top are using the same tactic). It does seem that in the following season 2015/2016 the number of players out (12) is significantly more than the number of players in (3). Squad size doesn't seem to be an issue as they have 49 players on the books... I've uploaded the save game to here in case you want to probe a bit deeper.

  22. #66
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    I have just ran the save until the end of the season and Manchester United manager to recover from a poor start and finish 12th. Arsenal however did not and were relegated with Gillingham and Newport. Manchester City ended up doing a lot worse than Manchester United and finished 17th! I think this is down to them not buying replacements though (they made only 30 signings across 16 seasons).

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    Well, I did similar thing and got same results. Even with iodine style tactics implemented it was funny to see how teams do .

  24. #68
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    For what it's worth, I would like to try out a harder version of these if possible.

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    I have run a test with 3968 until 2040 and most of the stronger sides have remained strong throughout.

    442 and 3142 have been by far the most commonly seen tactics across several countries and leagues. After this, a few 41212, defensive counter, 532 defensive, sweeper... with others being exteremely infrequently seen, e.g. the 4231 here:

    I would be really nice if formations like this could be more commonly used

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    Thanks for the save Jesus, taking a look ... not only because of the results. In your screenshots there is a player in Nottm Forest named Luke Dunn. He is without position, having a Jersey number 63 (which cannot be assigned) ... so I am worried about the new regen code having been naughty.

    Regarding harder versions .. yes, me too. But want to have these somewhat OK first.

    Kenny Dalgish's Smile: wish so too. There is no way to force them to be used. Already tried a "dirty" trick and marked that defensive 4-2-3-0-1 as a plain 4-5-1 in the pct file (using a hex editor). Just so it would be used more often by managers with a 4-5-1 favourite tactic. Cannot say it had a huge impact.

    Seems like the preferred formation field is not biting as much as we would wish.

  27. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    Thanks for the save Jesus, taking a look ... not only because of the results. In your screenshots there is a player in Nottm Forest named Luke Dunn. He is without position, having a Jersey number 63 (which cannot be assigned) ... so I am worried about the new regen code having been naughty.

    Regarding harder versions .. yes, me too. But want to have these somewhat OK first.

    Kenny Dalgish's Smile: wish so too. There is no way to force them to be used. Already tried a "dirty" trick and marked that defensive 4-2-3-0-1 as a plain 4-5-1 in the pct file (using a hex editor). Just so it would be used more often by managers with a 4-5-1 favourite tactic. Cannot say it had a huge impact.

    Seems like the preferred formation field is not biting as much as we would wish.
    Interesting, I didn't notice that myself. Could it be that the position of the player is too long for my font perhaps? It wouldn't explain the shirt number though. A little off topic but I remember a while ago you mentioning that there may be a way to tweak the match engine to make it more... balanced. Things like wingers being more effective, defensive and normal mentality being worth employing, counter attack and men behind ball actually working, etc. Is this something you could visit or is it low on your priority list? It would really open up the game and completely shake up the current iodine stranglehold of wibwob tactics.

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  29. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    Kenny Dalgish's Smile: wish so too. There is no way to force them to be used. Already tried a "dirty" trick and marked that defensive 4-2-3-0-1 as a plain 4-5-1 in the pct file (using a hex editor). Just so it would be used more often by managers with a 4-5-1 favourite tactic. Cannot say it had a huge impact.

    Seems like the preferred formation field is not biting as much as we would wish.
    How about reducing the total number of formations available, i.e. just delete a bunch of them from the data folder and see how it changes things. All the 442s, for ex.

  30. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    He is without position, having a Jersey number 63 (which cannot be assigned)
    So is Jonathan Hammond of Burnley. My guess is that they are greyed out players, they have the higher jersey numbers.

  31. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus View Post
    Interesting, I didn't notice that myself. Could it be that the position of the player is too long for my font perhaps? It wouldn't explain the shirt number though. A little off topic but I remember a while ago you mentioning that there may be a way to tweak the match engine to make it more... balanced. Things like wingers being more effective, defensive and normal mentality being worth employing, counter attack and men behind ball actually working, etc. Is this something you could visit or is it low on your priority list? It would really open up the game and completely shake up the current iodine stranglehold of wibwob tactics.
    That idea is just in the back of my head. I don't think that would be particularily popular either - people want their CM mostly untouched.
    A part of that idea is an even crazier variaton: randomize the match engine every time you apply the patcher -- so the tactics is new for each game (and different for different people). Regardless, not sure that is a good idea.

    Another hint: you should re-evaluate what you think you know about tacics. Before I released Iodine people complained about centralized tactics and how they are ruining the game, and how there can ever be good tactic with wingers or four defenders...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Dalglish's Smile
    How about reducing the total number of formations available, i.e. just delete a bunch of them from the data folder and see how it changes things. All the 442s, for ex.
    Deleting is a bad idea. They can be copies of the desired formations (and just because the file name is 442v8 has no requirement of it being a 4-4-2).
    Little worried about that: it is a poorer environment (with less variation), and it might be possible to find a tactic that beats the few present formations - but would lose against a more diverse field of tactics.
    In this set of PCTs I tried to make them a bit different, the wide formation is really wide etc. Just to avoid one tactic being able to exploit my style of building tactics (or smth).

    Quote Originally Posted by kaf
    So is Jonathan Hammond of Burnley. My guess is that they are greyed out players, they have the higher jersey numbers.
    Right. It is a likely a gray player who disappered the day between the match and the save. Nottm Forest got two more players that one day, and that probably made the last gray one disappear. Thanks.

  32. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    That idea is just in the back of my head. I don't think that would be particularily popular either - people want their CM mostly untouched.
    A part of that idea is an even crazier variaton: randomize the match engine every time you apply the patcher -- so the tactics is new for each game (and different for different people). Regardless, not sure that is a good idea.

    Another hint: you should re-evaluate what you think you know about tacics. Before I released Iodine people complained about centralized tactics and how they are ruining the game, and how there can ever be good tactic with wingers or four defenders...
    From a personal point of view playing two strikers should be just as effective as one or three strikers and wingers should be more effective than they are. It got me excited when you mentioned being able to potentially change it and that's why I brought it up again. "People want their CM mostly untouched" but the beauty of a patch is that it can either be used or not. Making it a selectable option (much like you did with harder AI tactics, unprotected contracts, etc) would solve any debate.

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