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Thread: Updated default tactics?

  1. #1
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    Updated default tactics?

    There has been some discussion for adjusting the default tactics used by the computer players (see http://www.champman0102.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5295).

    Some (like myself) would like to see a harder version of the game; where the players matter more than the tactics.

    Some would like to update the formations used to better match what is used in football today. Like, sweeper tactics are not that common anymore.

    My opinion is: the game should always work without updated tactics, and they must be optional. Everyone will not appreciate them being hard.

    Maybe we should create two packs: one as hard as we can make them, and one where just the formations are changed (and maybe slightly tweaked) but performance is kept down somehow (like no wib/wob or max two wibwobbed players -- or a point cap in a certain benchmark). Also I think some tactics should be built for something else than max points (like 4-3-2-1 should be built for not conceding goals).

    Any opinions?

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  3. #2
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    Agreed with all. Can help if needed.

    Would also add: no basing wib/wob tacs on iodine or anything haha.

    I found out the other way recently too .

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    3 scenarios would be ideal

    1. Updated default tactics -

    This allows the Update Team to correctly test teams in a given formation and get more accurate results without having to give some players positions they don't play e.g. centre to play in the default 41212. As Patinoz and myself mentioned in the other thread, 4231, 4141 and 4123 are 3 formations that aren't really available for the AI. The default 433 is buggy as f**k, turns out as 3412. Also, I guess we could do with different variations of each tactic, similar to the default tactics. Info0's 433 has been of great benefit

    2. Mid range wibwobbed tactic pack -

    Info0's pack was good fun but required also picking one of the top 50 tactics from the Open Tactic League. I think taking tactics from the 150-250 range could be ideal. Even for those that are a bit overused to winning but not tactically genuises in their own right (I'm in this category for sure), this could be very interesting.

    3. Ulimate Harder Tactics -

    For those that really want to test themselves. Top tactics, some of the best (or some of the best from the old ultimate tactics packs) to give those that find things a bit boring a proper test.

    Variations we would like:

    4141A



    4141B



    433B




    I'll have a chat with the rest of the team members in regards to the 4231 variations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    3 scenarios would be ideal

    1. Updated default tactics -

    This allows the Update Team to correctly test teams in a given formation and get more accurate results without having to give some players positions they don't play e.g. centre to play in the default 41212. As Patinoz and myself mentioned in the other thread, 4231, 4141 and 4123 are 3 formations that aren't really available for the AI. The default 433 is buggy as f**k, turns out as 3412. Also, I guess we could do with different variations of each tactic, similar to the default tactics. Info0's 433 has been of great benefit

    2. Mid range wibwobbed tactic pack -

    Info0's pack was good fun but required also picking one of the top 50 tactics from the Open Tactic League. I think taking tactics from the 150-250 range could be ideal. Even for those that are a bit overused to winning but not tactically genuises in their own right (I'm in this category for sure), this could be very interesting.

    3. Ulimate Harder Tactics -

    For those that really want to test themselves. Top tactics, some of the best (or some of the best from the old ultimate tactics packs) to give those that find things a bit boring a proper test.

    Variations we would like:

    4141A



    4141B



    433B




    I'll have a chat with the rest of the team members in regards to the 4231 variations
    Don't worry mate. The pack I released wib/wob wise was just a test. Had plans to edit all AI tactics to modern standards, but didn't have much time. Maybe will try to do it and as you call it, it would be mid-range ie. not impossible to beat.

    As for making game ultra hard, I don't really need to take tactics from OTL. Will try to get Tapani on board if so as need someone to see what I meant .

    Will be interesting in here, in near future that's for sure

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    The current set of tactics are:

    Code:
    343_default.pct
    343_defensive.pct
    352_attacking_default.pct
    352_default.pct
    352_defensive_default.pct
    352_v1.pct
    352_v2.pct
    41212_default.pct
    4132.pct
    424_default.pct
    424_v1.pct
    4312_v1.pct
    433_default.pct
    442_attacking_default.pct
    442_default.pct
    442_defensive_default.pct
    442_diamond_default.pct
    442_push.pct
    442_v1.pct
    442_v10.pct
    442_v4.pct
    442_v8.pct
    442_wide.pct
    451_default.pct
    451_defensive.pct
    451_norway.pct
    532_attacking_default.pct
    532_default.pct
    532_defensive_default.pct
    532_v1.pct
    532_v2.pct
    532_v3.pct
    532_v4.pct
    532_v5.pct
    532_v6.pct
    532_v7.pct
    532_v9.pct
    defensive_counter.pct
    sweeper_default.pct
    sweeper_v1.pct
    Which ones should be replaced, and with what formations?

    Let's first discuss the replacement pack (not hard one). The level should be same or marginally better than default.
    Maybe aim at the same as the best default tactic (4-1-3-2)?

    Further points:
    • Strive for all settings to be used by some tactic (including defensive counter and long passing)
    • Objective should not be to score maximum points
    • Some tactics (def counter) maybe should be optimized to not concede goals
    • Strive to have all tactics equally good (updates are easier to evaluate when all teams use equally good tactics)
    • Is the update team behind this project or is it just another added on pack?
    • Allow more wibwob for the worst formations / settings? (i.e. man behind ball == 4 wibwobbed players, normal mentality == 1 wibwob or smth)


    We should create (or decide upon) a benchmark save, preferrably of a very small league with small database with all extra cups off.
    So testing tactics is quick.

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    Greek league?: P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    [*]Is the update team behind this project or is it just another added on pack?
    We will definitely be behind a default tactic pack. We've done enough testing over the past few years to get different results so it's not going to be a big ask to test tactics that are actually designed to work the way we want. Removing the guesswork would make it easier for us

    Quote Originally Posted by info0 View Post
    Greek league?: P
    Holland is better, the players are more up to date

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    Ah true. Could even try Prtugal league (30 games and 1 cup).

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    Yep. For the Tactic Challenges I done I disabled everything in Turkey (even the 2nd tier and lower). Could barely read the screen the season went so fast. 5 instances flew by. Temp files were a pain though.

    Is Dev Mode available in a patch that alters nothing in the game e.g. slower player development switched off. This way it could be used and the results would be the same as an unpatched version on the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    Yep. For the Tactic Challenges I done I disabled everything in Turkey (even the 2nd tier and lower). Could barely read the screen the season went so fast. 5 instances flew by. Temp files were a pain though.

    Is Dev Mode available in a patch that alters nothing in the game e.g. slower player development switched off. This way it could be used and the results would be the same as an unpatched version on the game
    That can be arranged. Also reduce number of clubs and players in non-active leagues.
    For temp files I have separate 8 folders... :p

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  14. #11
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    It was the temp files each instance created. If I didn't delete them completed it was highly likely there would be a bunch of repeat runs e.g. Run 1 and Run 2 could be different but Runs 3-5 would be identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    It was the temp files each instance created. If I didn't delete them completed it was highly likely there would be a bunch of repeat runs e.g. Run 1 and Run 2 could be different but Runs 3-5 would be identical.
    Identical runs are usually a symptom of several instances of the game started at the same time (same second).

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    Ideally if your going to test a tactic, then how about making sure all teams are equal in terms of CA/PA?

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    Did not manage to disable leagues in a reliable way, if someone else manages please do so.

    There is a "reduced patcher", it creates games that contain far less clubs and less players -- so a holiday season is abt 15-20% faster.
    http://tapani.homeftp.org/cm/cmpatch...educedgame.exe

    Did some league testing, how long time does a league take on holiday (times are minutes:seconds)
    Code:
    Dutch league, unreduced : 1:36
    Reduced Dutch : 1:22
    Reduced Greek: 1:07 
    Reduced Portugal: 1:26
    Reduced Croatia: 1:25
    Reduced Turkey: 1:45
    Reduced NIR: 1.03
    Reduced IRE: 1:09
    So Greek league seems to give a good balance between speed and variety of player levels?

    Whoever manages to disable CL, EL, lower divisions etc, please generate a game (start year 2001?) and bundle the save with the exe.
    When selecting benchmark team, please pick a team that has players on all positions and a somewhat constitent GK.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EL-TOPPO View Post
    Ideally if your going to test a tactic, then how about making sure all teams are equal in terms of CA/PA?
    Because doing ok against better opposition is a quality too. And not dropping points against worse opponents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    Did not manage to disable leagues in a reliable way, if someone else manages please do so.

    There is a "reduced patcher", it creates games that contain far less clubs and less players -- so a holiday season is abt 15-20% faster.
    http://tapani.homeftp.org/cm/cmpatch...educedgame.exe

    Did some league testing, how long time does a league take on holiday (times are minutes:seconds)
    Code:
    Dutch league, unreduced : 1:36
    Reduced Dutch : 1:22
    Reduced Greek: 1:07 
    Reduced Portugal: 1:26
    Reduced Croatia: 1:25
    Reduced Turkey: 1:45
    Reduced NIR: 1.03
    Reduced IRE: 1:09
    So Greek league seems to give a good balance between speed and variety of player levels?

    Whoever manages to disable CL, EL, lower divisions etc, please generate a game (start year 2001?) and bundle the save with the exe.
    When selecting benchmark team, please pick a team that has players on all positions and a somewhat constitent GK.

    - - - Updated - - -
    I think John has a tool in his FLEX that allows to disable cups etc. Do not know if it also disables leagues as well..

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    Like I said, I can do tactics and put them on benchmark my end. No problem to run computer for 12+ hours if needed .

    Yeah Greek/Holland leagues are what I fancy .

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    Tweaking a save in Greece, I think I can make it a bit faster than what we are used to.

    Meanwhile: can someone (preferrably from the update team) be more specific what formations (original pct) should be replaced with what.

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    Ok, here goes first run of trial tactics. Both sweeper versions are 4231. https://www.sendspace.com/file/xy8r8g


    Would it be better if we chose one version for each tactic for stability purposes? Like, if there was 1 of 442, 1 of 352, 1 of 532 etc. would it ensure the AI uses our choice of formation. Like no-one uses 442 defensive in real life as such so could we just delete this altogether so that when it comes to testing a manager with 442 as preferred formation always picks only one version of 442?

    And can formation options be removed? There are about 13 of 532/352 variants, realistically 4-6 is the max we need. On the flip side of that, can we add another variant? There is only 1 433 option but we could easily use a couple more.
    Last edited by Dermotron; 09-07-14 at 09:52 AM.

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    Have just thought of something, if we did have one version for each tactic i.e. 1 version of 352, we would need to replicate it for each type that AI uses as people that use out Data Updates will have the other versions in their data folder (we would intend including these tactics in future updates similiar to the 433 packed with the last 2 DB's)
    Last edited by Dermotron; 09-07-14 at 01:08 AM.

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    Thank you Dermotron,

    I take it as the tactics inside there are what would be the preferred formations for the default tactics?

    Reducing the number of, or changing which formation counts as what would require a patch.
    The game looks for certain file names to load. My guess is that the type for those tactics is hard coded somewhere (that X.tct, Y.txt and Z.tct are all 5-3-2 and should be used by managers that prefer formation 5-3-2).

    Btw,

    Just a taster of a quick benchmark save (use with accompanying exe). Should be a little quicker than what has been used before
    http://tapani.homeftp.org/cm/BM-v0.1.zip

    Need to adjust which team to use, chairman patience etc. Also I am not convinced that the default training counters are right -- seeing players gaining 3-4 pts in key attributes during the first season.

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  26. #21
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    I only found in exe where they are loaded (by name), but would be ace to actually limit them. There are too many variations which ruin the options imo .

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    Quote Originally Posted by info0 View Post
    I only found in exe where they are loaded (by name), but would be ace to actually limit them. There are too many variations which ruin the options imo .

    That was why I had suggested making one version, for every variation. Like a solid 352 and add it for all versions. That would remove the chance of a different version I would have thought.
    Last edited by Dermotron; 10-07-14 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post

    I take it as the tactics inside there are what would be the preferred formations for the default tactics?
    Yes, I packed both for convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    Reducing the number of, or changing which formation counts as what would require a patch.
    The game looks for certain file names to load. My guess is that the type for those tactics is hard coded somewhere (that X.tct, Y.txt and Z.tct are all 5-3-2 and should be used by managers that prefer formation 5-3-2).
    Ok, let's rule out removing tactics, maybe we should look at how the AI chooses the different variations, then it might help with selecting the correct and most suitable versions. If picking one correct one is what is required that could be fine as the 352 Sweeper that can be added as Preffered Tactic to staff is totally redundant anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tapani View Post
    Just a taster of a quick benchmark save (use with accompanying exe). Should be a little quicker than what has been used before
    http://tapani.homeftp.org/cm/BM-v0.1.zip.
    It's pretty quick!!

    Be great if you could upload a test save for us to run some seasons on where the AI only has the tactics from the zip file to choose from so we can start to gather some data
    Last edited by Dermotron; 10-07-14 at 06:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    That was why I had suggested making one version, for every variation. Like a solid 352 and add it for all versions. That would remove the chance of a different version I would have thought.
    Not really. Tested this already. Doesn't work as AI will then start to randomize what they play. Its bizarre game at times.

    Hopefully, we will find a way .

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    The tactic type seems to be encoded at offset 0xfe in the tactic file.
    A 4-4-2 has overview "28 1b 06 c1" and a 3-0-2-2-3 has "38 11 53 81".

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