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Thread: Everything there is to know about training - by The Eejit

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    Everything there is to know about training - by The Eejit

    There is a lot talked about training plans, how to get the most out of players. Almost everyone has a different view, so I thought that I would conduct some scientific tests to determine what factors will related to training, coaches and player attributes will have the greatest impact.

    To start the tests, I have chosen AC Horsen in the Danish Premier League. This is partly because the Danish Premier is a small league, so it should be failry quick to play a season in holiday mode, but also because the board have no great expectations, so if I am messing about, I should at least be able to survive the season without the sack ! I have re-run some of the tests with other clubs (Bristol Rovers, Ascoli and Adelaide Utd) to confirm some surprising results, but more of that later.

    AC Horsen has an average training ground (10), a small squad (23 players) an average assistant and 3 average coaches. All staff have been given very long contracts to avoid them being poached by other clubs (particularly when they become “super coaches”)













    I particularly don’t like using “Fitness” coaches for anything other than fitness work, but I have no grounds for this. It will be interesting to see whether Henrik Larsen confirms my predjudice. I will be playing matches in holiday mode using the crusade tactic which appears to match well with the players available and should allow most to get a game.

    To measure improvement, I am using CM Scout and the “Scout Rating” column. Having started a game, I entered all of the players ratings into a spreadsheet and averaged them out. It came to 55.39% and this will be my base line. All test will start with this save game (and I have made it read only to avoid any accidents)

    The first test was a simple one where the Goalkeepers were set to intensive Goalkeeping and all other training schedules on none. The rest of the squad were split into Fitness, Shooting, Skill and Tactics, with the main schedule on intensive and all others on none. This was to find out which attributes were affected by each schedule.

    The results showed that

    Fitness : Acceleration, Agility, Jumping, Pace, Stamina, Strength and Reflexes
    Shooting : Finishing and Long Shots
    Skill : Crossing, Dribbling, Heading, Passing, Set Pieces, Tackling and Technique
    Tactics : Decisions, Marking, Off the Ball, Positioning and Teamwork
    Goalkeeping : Handling

    Aggresion, Anticipation, Balance, Bravery, Creativity, Determination, Flare, Influence and Work Rate as well as all the hidden attributes are not affected by any training. Some may change over time, but this would be outside of any training regime.

    Some interesting findings here. I would certainly want my GKs to be taking on Fitness attributes and the Positioning from Tactics would also help. Similarly, I would want my Attackers to be gaining from the positioning and off the ball improvements from Tactics. It may be early, but already I can see myself making some changes to my thinking.

    The second test looked to see if the number of coaches influenced the training. First I ran the season with exactly the coaches I started with and measured the improvement on CM Scout. The average was now 57.29%, an average improvement of 1.9%. Next I released all of the coaches, and the assistant. This time the figure came to 54.57%, so we have dropped on average 0.82%. No big shock there – having coaches does appear to make a difference. Next I signed up 2 pretty average coaches and tested again





    The improvement was 1.93% which is a negligible difference over having the original assistant and 3 coaches. This was a big surprise, so I tested the original and 5 coaches couple of times with the same results, it always came out on or around the same figures (sometimes worse). I repeated this with the other clubs mentioned just to confirm, and there is no appreciable difference between having an assistant and 3 coaches to an assistant and 5 coaches. I would love it if others could replicate this quick test with their clubs to confirm my findings which I still don’t fully believe.

    The next tests will look at how improving the training facilities improves the training. I will be looking at Player attributes, Coach attributes and whether more intensive training does result in more injuries, however if anyone has a test they would like me to try, let me know.

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    Improving Training Facilities

    This one I thought was a no brainer. Improve the training facilities and the players train better. That certainly appeared to be the case when I reduced the standard of the training facilities to Awful (a 1 rating). A run through the season as before resulted in an average player improvement of 1.53%. This was less than the default training from the previous tests, which is what I expected.

    Next I increased the facilities to Needs Investment (a 5 rating) and repeated the test. The players trained better and recorded a 1.97% improvement. I was expecting an improvement, but this was now better than the default which had a 10 rating. I repeated the test and achieved very similar results. Undeterred, I pressed on, improving the facilities to Good (10), Excellent (15) and Top Facilities (20). The results are recorded in the following graph.



    I had to repeat these tests a number of times and with other teams to confirm the findings, but basically there is little or no improvement between Needing Investment through to Excellent. Infact the lower end usually did better than the upper end. There was however a clear difference between Awful facilities and the rest, and a marked improvement when you get to the Top Facilities.

    This already has me wondering about where I spend my money in the future.

    Next test will look at players getting regular 1st team games and do they improve more than reserves.

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    Does playing improve training ?

    In trying to edit the attributes of my coaches for the next test (do better coaches make bigger improvements ?) I managed to corrupt my base save game. As a result, I will be revisiting some of my earlier tests, which is no bad thing, as I think I spotted a small flaw in my logic. With my new base, I have confirmed the fact that improving the training facilities from “Needs Improving” upto “Excellent” makes very little difference. “Awful” are significantly worse and “Top Facilies” are significantly better.

    With my new base, I ran through a season 5 times, each time with the starting 11 chosen for the assistant so that baring injury or suspension the same 11 would start every game. From that, regular starters improved on average 2.50% on CM Scout. The non-starters improved only 1.75% in the same games. It should be noted that it was often the “non-training” attributes that improved in these players (Anticipation, Bravery, Creativity, Determination, Flare, Influence) and it could be this that made the difference. Certainly none of the regular starters ever ended up a worse player at the end of the season, while some of the non-starters did.

    Of all the tests I have started so far, this was the most conclusive. I hope to rerun some of the earlier tests over the weekend.

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    How coaches improve training ?

    I can exclusively reveal that the answer to coaching is 50. But more of that later !

    Before I start, here is a little hint for all those “cheats” or “players who want to enhance their game” who make use of save game editors. I was wanting to even out the attributes of my coaches so that they had 10 for the ones I considered the most important (Coaching GK, Coaching Outfield, Coaching Style and Working with Youngsters). My first attempt was to use Graeme Kelly’s save game editor, however adjusting these values would impact on the CA of the coaches and the game appears to know the starting values for these attributes and makes attempts to get them back to where they were, so after a season, the coaches are virtually at the unedited values (it may help if anyone knew how to work out a coaches CA).

    The next attempt was to use CMExplorer to “transfer” into the club coaches with the attributes that I was looking for. At first this appeared to work, however I was getting some results that I couldn’t explain and after some investigations, although the coach is assigned to my club, it appears that he is still working for (and getting paid by) the club that I “transferred” him from.

    What I’ve had to resort to is using the Graeme Kelly editor to alter the target coaches Current/Home/World reputations, the favourite club and set me as the favourite player/staff then start the save game and sign them. This has produced the results I want, but is a bit long winded, so if anyone knows a better cheat, please let me know (by PM if you don’t want your work to be public)

    Will adding coaches improve my training

    Having resolved the method of getting the right coaches, I first went back to a previous test to look at how increasing the number of coaches improves the players. For this test, all coaches had 10 ratings for the important attributes. Starting without any coaches I ran though a season, still using AC Horsen, and used the CM Scout player rating as a base line. I then repeated the season but this time with just an Assistant Manager. I then repeated, adding a coach each time, until I had a full complement. The results are in the graph below.



    What is interesting is that after getting to an Assistant and 4 coaches, the improvement appears to level out. I had to repeat this several times, with big and little clubs and saw roughly the same thing the improvement levelled out after the 4th coach was added.

    Coaches should only be assigned to 3 schedules …. Fact or fiction ?

    A long time ago, I read on a forum (probably The Dugout) that you should never assign your coaches to more than 3 schedules and that your assistant should be assigned to all schedules. I have religiously followed this advice, but now it was time to test the theory. Using the same save game as the previous test, I had a full complement of perfect (all 20s) coaches and started with all coaches given all 5 schedules. I then reduced the schedules per coach by 1 at a time and reran the same season. (note that with 6 coaches and 5 schedules, there would always be a schedule with a different number of coaches from the rest. I made sure that this was the GK schedule and excluded the keepers from the measurements). The results that I got are in the graph below which appears to confirm the 3 schedules theory.


    This however had been a mistake on my part, as I had wanted to use coaches with 10 ratings. I retried with the coaches I had wanted, and to my surprise, I now had a straight line. After confirming both of these tests, I then ran through with 15 rated coaches and with 5 rated coaches and have posted the graph below



    This surprised me, as it appears that the better coaches flatten out earlier, the opposite of what I was expecting. I then ran through some tests with mixed abilities and varying numbers of coaches and have formed a hypothesis that the effectiveness of training is based on the coaches assigned to each schedule. You can add coaches to a schedule until the sum of their outfield coaching is 50. After that, adding coaches to that schedule will provide no benefit. Coaches can be assigned to as many schedules as you like and it will not impact on the effectiveness of the training program.

    This magic number of 50 appears to also apply to goal keepers, although I have not tested that as thoroughly, all my evidence points to that being the case.

    The testing has also revealed that a bad coach will still benefit the training. So a coach with a 5 rating in Coaching Outfield players and a coach with a 15 rating will perform roughly the same as 2 with 10 ratings or one with a 20 rating. I have also found that the Assistant has no more impact on training than a normal coach. The assistant does have an impact on Holiday mode and maybe the youth coming from the academy, but I’m not convinced that they do much else that a normal coach doesn’t.

    What does benefit from a reduction in schedules are the coaches themselves. Like players, coaches (and assistants) do have a CA and PA and do improve (or reduce) their attributes over time. By reducing the number of schedules that a coach is assigned to, the more that coach will improve. It also appears to be a straight correlation. The fewer the number of schedules, the better the improvement, although age does also come into the equation (younger coaches improve more than older ones.

    I will be looking next at how the coaching style (Fitness, General or Technical) influences the results of training.

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    Part Time v Full Time

    This was a very difficult one to test as there is no editor that I have found which can change this part of the contract. Still using my AC Horsen team, I changed the players and club and started a new game with them all part time. I ran through a season a couple of times. We averaged a 1.67% increase in average for the players as opposed to 2.73% for full time players and staff. It has to be said that this is not a direct comparison as there are random factors when a new game is started. Interestingly part time players and full time staff made very little difference (1.74% improvement) while full time players with part time staff showed a 2.47% increase.
    Conclusion is to make players full time before staff.

    Size of squad

    For this test, I signed up a lot of free players to max out the squad at 50 players. As I said above, the standard 25 man squad improved 2.73% over the course of a season. With a full squad, this went down to 2.69%. I don’t think that this is significant enough to make any judgement and is more likely related to the attributes of the players that I signed.

    Does a bad coach make a good coach worse ?

    Definitely not. Adding a coach always helps. Obviously the worse the coach, the less the improvement, but even a bad coach with a 5 rating for Coaching Outfield will improve your training.

    Coaching Style

    How will a Fitness coach get on teaching skills, and a Technical coach deal with fitness ? In fact it appears to make no difference. A Technical coach is just as good at improving fitness as a Fitness coach and vice versa. There is a difference for Goalkeeping coaches v Outfield and they can’t be swapped without having an impact.

    What other attributes should I consider for a coach ?

    Adaptability,Man Management, Motivating, Physiotherapy, Determination, Tactical Knowledge, Judging Ability, Judging Potential and Level of Discipline all made no significant difference. None of them do any harm, but I wouldn't pay any more for a coach with high values here over one without.

    Working with Youngsters was interesting. There was a small improvement as this attribute increased, however it was not just the youngsters who did better. After digging into the detail, it appears that coaches with a high value here will benefit players not getting a regular game. So if you do like a large squad then this will make an impact.

    Preferred formation and Preferred style made no significant difference

    I think that this concludes my investigation into coaches and facilities. I’ll be looking at players, their attributes and their schedules next.

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    well, i ve tried another training exp. my results are shown below.

    i ve created 3 defenders (def a, def b, def c) 3 midfielders (ort a, ort b, ort c) and 3 attackers.
    totally 9 players. loaned 1 defender, 1 midfielder and 1 attacker to crewe, (control group) they are shown as yellow.
    since we are mainly interested in the progress of youngsters, my created players are at the age of 20 with 100 ca and 160 pa
    all my coaches are edited to have almost excellent stats.
    at the 2nd try i edited their youngesters and discipline to set : 1, where they were 20 at the 1st and 3rd tries.
    at the 3rd run i used an average training regime,
    i guess youngesters and discipline for a coach are useless. also you should adjust the training for your players, the general is not so good.



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    Discipline was a strange one. From the tests that I did, a high level of discipline had a small detrimental effect on a players improvement. What I saw was an increase in the number of players reported for missing training and therefore not improving. When the coaches discipline was low, very few players were reported for missing training and although you can't tell, it would appear that if they are not reported, then they are training.
    I have to say that the sample is small and the effect also small, but that is the trend that I saw.

    Tactical Knowledge has a huge impact for your assistant if you are playing in holiday mode, but nothing significant for a coach. I could see virtualy no impact for Working with Youngsters.

    With the possible exception of discipline, it does absolutely no harm to have high values for all attributes. I just have no evidence to convince me that they do any good.

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    Thanks for bringing this across, much appreciated.

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    Do u have any good training schedule that I can referred to?

    Thanks

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  19. #11
    Retro Unattached
    that was an awesome read, thanks very much Patinoz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro View Post
    that was an awesome read, thanks very much Patinoz.
    The Eejit

  21. #13
    Retro Unattached
    Quote Originally Posted by Fodster View Post
    The Eejit
    thought they were one and the same! Apologies. Thanks The Eejit.

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    That was awesome, great detail!

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    Clarification

    Can I just clarify this.

    I assume that means that a coach of outfield ability 10 or less should be set to as many schedules as possible
    (Fitness, Skill, Tactics, Shooting, Goalkeeping), one of 13 to 4, one of 17 or more to 3.

    However the total ability assigned to each schedule need not exceed 50.

    So if all the coaches have value 10 for outfield/ goalkeepers then the default settings (all to all) is pretty good and can only be improved by reducing the number of schedules for 5 coaches by 1. (presumably remove the fitness schedule from a technique specialist and vice versa), this gives the coaches time to improve.

    Since there are more coaches than schedules, it should be possible to spread the cover over e.g. for 17s

    FSTSG
    XXXOO
    OXXXO
    OOXXX
    XOOXX
    XXOOX
    This is free

    And if playing in a lower league then the best option is to sign as many coaches as possible and (probably) put them on a 4-schedule and hope they improve. (I always try and sign an 'unproven' coach and keep them for a year or so to see if they improve noticeably)

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    The way to judge whether a low-rep coach is good is pretty simple actually.

    You set the staff search screen to attributes and filter the following 8 so you can see only them: coaching outfield, coaching keepers, judging ability, judging potential, motivating, man handling, physiotherapy and tactics. Then you sort their man handling or motivation atts from lowest to highest. (Or tactics, or judging ability/potential, basically anything that's not coaching player/keepers.) What you're looking for is a coach whose coaching outfield and/or keeper atts stand out from the rest. For example, 4s, 5s or 6s for the irrelevant ones and a 9 or a 10 for one or two of the coaching atts. A coach with a combination of 4s, 5s or 6s + 9s or 10s (or more) has those 9s or 10s very high. It wouldn't matter if they don't add up to 50, because their intrinsic values are very high.

    Generally, look for a difference of at least 3 between the irrelevent atts and the coaching atts and a low average for those filtered atts, let's say not much more than 7

  25. #17
    aibietgidau Unattached
    Which schedule (1 or 2) will help defenders improve defense attributes faster? Or the same?

    Schedule 1:
    Defender:
    + Fitness: Intensive
    + Tactic: Intensive
    + Shoot: None
    + Skill: Light

    Schedule 2:
    Defender:
    + Fitness: Intensive
    + Tactic: Intensive
    + Shoot: Medium
    + Skill: Medium

    I prefer schedule 1, and the reason is: I want my defenders to use all CA points to improve defense attributes, and don't waste CA points to attack attributes.
    I think a defender with Finish 1 & Tackle 20 is better than Finish 15 & Tackle 10, is it correct?

  26. #18
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    I think you're defenders will get too tired if you have two things set to 'Intensive'.

  27. #19
    aibietgidau Unattached
    No, it doesn't make them tired.
    For a player, playing 1 match/week and an extra game in mid-week sometimes is fine for them (of course my players have enough Natural Fitness to handle it). My team have 22 players for rotation, so I don't worried much about that.

    All I care is which schedule will help players improve faster and don't waste CA points into 'useless' attributes?

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    I'm still not convinced there's such a thing as different attributes costing CA-points though

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    Hire Jari Litmanen as a coach/assistant!

  30. #22
    thom_raindog Unattached
    Now, I know, this will sound like an absolutely dumb thing to ask, but: How can I improve my training facilities? Under "Finances & Info" / "General Info" it sais: "Adequate facilities", but there seems nothing to be clicked on.
    I could not find anything in the pdf manual either. Any hints?

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    Ask the Board to improve them for you

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    It's not dumb - it is just that you don't know.

    Go to 'board confidence', 'board request', 'invest in young players' - you will be told whether the board think that the training facilities should be upgraded, it they think that they should be but don't have the funds, or if they agree with you.

    If they agree then the training facilities will be upgraded between seasons. If they don't and you feel that they should be then you can issue an ultimatum. The result of that could be that you are sacked, that you are told it is the board's decision and they will overlook your outburst, or that they agree with you (most unlikely unless you have a good rep.)

  33. #25
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    Wow, just noticed this, seems a little small compared to the old site where we all had various training regimes & downloads available (including the one I use).

    Out of interest and seeing as the thread is no longer here, what do people reckon is the best training schedule?

    I know some swear by general but i find players don't develop as much as other training schedules and using general over many years makes the players worse on a non patch game imo.





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