Mate... Germans allowed over 3 mln immigrants due to Merkel politics last year alone lol. It's said that next 2 to 3 mln are coming.
If UK closes borders, what would happen to people already living in UK but not being British citizens? Yep, I fear for what Redders is saying. Deportation to home country. Many Poles came to UK to work. Will UK now say: you can fuck off? Good luck with getting your youngsters to do jobs immigrants do .
I know about Germany. Their population is fuming with Merkel ovdr this and the events of new years eve in Cologne.
The stay campaign plays on people's fears, no factual arguments at all.
I repeat again, no one has even suggested deporting anyone, not that I have seen anyway but i'm always happy to be educated if anyone can show the leave campaign promoting deportation.
The campaign is about UK making our own laws and policing our own borders and not eng ruled by the ECB.
I know the stay propaganda paints this as racist and xenophobic but that shows their desperation and lack of proper arguments.
Well I am voting to remain. Many Brits work and live in different countries around Europe, they don't have a problem with it. The way I see it is the freedom to work and live were you want and by closing our borders we are denying people the same luxury that we have to choose were we live and work. I see that as unfair. I want to live and work in another European country at some point in my life and if that country wanted to shut its borders then I would be very unhappy about it and feel I was being treated differently. I do understant that it is not as many Brits working abroad to foreigners that work in this country but if our country was poor and others rich I am pretty sure we would be doing the same,
It was sold to us a trade agreement mate but its becoming more and more like the USSR by the day.
When we joined it was called the EEC, it was about a common market and trading with our partners.
Now they are basically taking the piss in my view, trying to make it that all of Europe is ruled over by a tiny elite on the commission which once again is not even elected by the citizens. We need to get out of it, and to encourage our neighbours to do the same and kill this ever expanding beauricratic nonsense.
We dont need this institution to deal with our partners in europe, if anything it slows things down.
What's wrong with the USSR?
It's all in this book
From Animal Farm to 1984...
I don't think I've met anyone personally who isn't voting 'out' at the moment.
The Alphabet Game
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Yep - sounds like it could be closer than people expect.
Oldies will get their votes placed and will vote out
Still think 'in' will get about 55-60% of vote
I'm pleased that the thread has over 900 views, near the top of the last month.
First time I have been genuinely excited by a vote, i think many throughout the country are the same.
What will you do though if England leaves the EU, and things go worse? What if the GDP falls because you no longer have preferential trade with EU countries? What if the UK then has a diminished voice deciding issues that affect all of Europe?
I'm not saying it's going to be the case... I really have no idea.... but the odds of everything being rosy are not super likely.... there is bound to be some blowback, regardless of what people say.... there is never 100% good things that happen in situations such as this...
and then what? what if life is worse in a non-EU Britain than in an EU one? Would you support going back in?
I have looked at it for a year now since they announced it.I dont think leaving will solve every problem we have n Britain but I do feel like i know what happens if we stay in and that staying for me is far more problematic.
I don't see it being a magic bullet and we are still going to be under a corrupt and delusinal fractional reserve banking system that creates more debt than profit or growth.
We are still for the next couple of years going to be under a David Cameron government, although he might not last long if we leave.
But we can then vote them out, change the government, protest against injustices that may exist in our system and hold their feet to the fire to redress the balance. That isn't possible in the EU superstate, we would have very little voce in it if you look at the numbers of MPs and the increasing amount of countries involved.
Second point, no i wouldn't want to join back in. I would push for exit referenda in other member states
But what if this weakens Britain's trade power? You guys export a ton of stuff to the EU.... if you suddenly have an unfavourable trade deal with the large single market (and don't forget, if you leave, the EU essentially has all the power when negotiating a new agreement with you, and little to no reason to make it in your best interest), that could start a recession and drive up the prices of common goods... isn't it better to be part of a large economic market with a massive negotiating power, rather than one lone economy that no one needs to play nice with?
I'm still a firm believer that all this talk of countries and nations is ridiculous.... call me idealistic, but I think we should all be part of one thing, not arbitrarily separated into countries and regions
read about Denmark and Switzerland mate, they aren't in and they do much better in trade deals than any EU country.
Also, we BUY loads from the EU, we sell some but overall the money goes in the other direction. They need us, we won't end up with shortages of common goods, everyone wants to sell their shit in the UK. The biggest trade partner with the UK is still the USA, not the EU.
I get what you're saying on the economic point and although they are forced to offer us a deal they may try to gouge us after tge Brexit. My answer to that would be that we just start making the shit again ourselves, create more jobs while we're at it.
in practice absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The nation state means that if some country gets a bloodthirsty megalomaniac dictator hell bent on world domination then there is an opposition to that
if there is a one world government then where would the power hungry dictator types gravitate to?
and where would the resistance come from once the one government controlled everything?
if we could get a few angels with altruistic hearts i would love to see it but human nature doesn't seem to bend that way, power attracts evil
Everyone should have the same homogonised culture, customs, food, drink, same religion, same language?
I wouldn't want to go on holiday anywhere in that world, everything the same thing boring as fuck
Aren't you guys proud of your own country and heritage/history/culture?
Trying to pretend there are no differences between different people is crazy, Accepting peoples differences and trying to work with them is really the best we can try and do.
This is super relevant in Europe which has many amazing cultures, strong nations that this EU wants to crush into one giant land mass, devoid of character or personality
Not every country will have the same weather tho 316!
I'm not an expert and I haven't done loads of research, but I'll put a couple of points below.
Pretty much every expert opinion says that Britain will be worse off if we leave the EU (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6898886.html). I don't think that's in question. Particularly, that "£350M per week/£50M per day" figure is just wrong - in fact, it's been so misused by the Leave campaign that they've been officially warned about it http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a7051756.html
The statement that 'Britain buys more from Europe than it sells, so the EU needs us more than we need them' ignore the fact that the EU is much bigger than Britain - even if the bare numbers are in our favour, one should be looking at percentages: 45% of UK exports go to the EU, whilst only 16% of EU exports go to Britain http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-br...uk-trade-be-eu
All four countries like Switzerland that are out of the EU but still in the European Free Trade Association also have to accept freedom of movement and other concessions in order to get those trade deals. (Someone mentioned Denmark, but they are in the EU - possibly meant Norway?) Britain is actually in a pretty sweet place by having all the trade advantages without being a member of Schengen or using the Euro. We're really having our cake and eating it too on this one.
Also, from https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...have-on-the-eu (some words removed to make it more readable, but nothing that changes the content):
Not to mention all the huge firms that may move out of Britain into the EU if we left: the major industries of today and tomorrow (I'm thinking technology, banking, engineering) are multinational and choose Britain for its access to the EU. They would not be happy to be cut off from Europe (for just two examples, see Nissan and BMW, http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/09/n...gainst-brexit/ and Goldman Sachs, http://www.wsj.com/articles/who-lose...chs-1460403274). They'd likely leave Britain and relocate to, say, Paris or Berlin, further damaging our economy.Technically, there would be no negotiations about the terms of access of the UK to the rest of EU; the EU would determine the future terms of access of the UK to the EU. The UK would, of course, set the terms of access of the rest of EU to the UK. The negotiations on future economic (and political) relations between the UK and the rest of EU would, however, likely be very asymmetric with negligible bargaining power for the UK.
Immigrants pay more into Britain than they take out (https://next.ft.com/content/c49043a8...9-00144feabdc0). Therefore, we would be less able to pay for the NHS, schools, etc if we reduced immigration.
We hear a lot about how we could introduce an "Australian-style" points-based/skills-based immigration system if we had 'control of our own borders', but that's not what this government would do - for non-EU workers it's simply "Will you earn under £30k? No entry." Even if you're already here, it's "Earn under £35k? Get out." (http://www.theguardian.com/money/201...ns-australians), and I see no reason why this wouldn't then be extended to EU citizens if we left. This doesn't meet the idea of allowing in immigrants based on what the UK needs (such as nurses or teachers, both of whom earn under £30k), so I don't trust that we would have a 'good' immigration policy if we left.
Also, the single greatest driver of inequality in the world today is restricted movement (http://timharford.com/2014/11/a-passport-to-privilege/). This is maybe more a question of individual morals, but I strongly believe that reducing mobility of people between countries is a backwards step and is to be deplored.
This claim that being in the EU means being governed by unelected bureaucrats is just weird - 'unelected bureaucrats' work for goverments everywhere, it's like saying that the UK is governed by the Civil Service (viewers of Yes, Minister may wish to agree with this!). You could even argue that with two levels of democracy - directly-elected MEPs, plus representation from heads of member states' governments - the EU is more democratic than normal, not less (but that might be pushing it a bit!)
(Got to admit, this was a new argument to me, I hadn't heard anyone mention it before.)
The EU, as an organisation, has 24 official languages. Its motto is 'United in Diversity'. There's no reason to think that the EU is promoting or striving for homogenisation of culture - in fact, it actively campaigns to protect and encourage diversity. It supports and empowers minority groups by, for example, giving languages like Catalan and Welsh 'semi-official' status.
Finally, whilst there are people I dislike on both sides of the debate (Cameron, Hunt saying stay; Gove, Johnson, Trump, Farage, the Daily Mail saying leave), I don't think any public figure I like or respect has said to leave. As far as I've seen, every political and economic commentator that I trust advocates staying in.
EDIT: Phew, that was longer than I thought! (That's what she said...). It's something I feel quite strongly about, to the extent that I'd be pretty upset and angry if any of my friends and family voted to leave.
Last edited by kuy; 08-06-16 at 10:02 AM.
every "expert" opinion says that the UK will be damaged by leaving. I'm sorry but these are only liberal/leftist/socialist "experts". There are plenty of others like Peter Schiff, Gerald Celente, Max Kieser etc that have the exact opposite view and they are also "experts" (if it is possible to be so as markets are notoriously difficult to predict, although these 3 have a track record in doing so)
Along the same lines, the world economic forum, the institute of economic research etc, they are probably paid for by the beauracracy, of course they want the gravy train to continue.
I don't believe those firms will leave the UK. Isn't it the case that we can choose our own corporation tax level if we leave? We could attract many new inward investments in this way.
On immigration it is untenable to allow the current levels to continue, and I don't believe for 1 second that migrants put more in than they take, I can't read that FT article it doesn't allow me without subscription.
I do believe in controlled immigration, you can't have a free welfare state and NHS free at the point of use and open borders at the same time.
I would like to add that we aren't getting the Mexicans to build a wall, there will still be immigration, helping true asylum seekers etc and viable workers that we need, just not a completely open season for anyone to pitch up and start claiming benefits.
Yes the commission is appointed by the heads of state, but this is not acceptable to me or many others. The "you scratch my back I'll appoint you to the upper house of Europe" model is what's wrong with the western world and why should these people be appointed to decide what the laws are? I think some proper MPs that have been voted in our own constituencies should definitely be involved in any law making that affects us, same with all other 27 members. Their citizens should be more properly represented. Have a listen to Farage discussing this in the EU parliament it's quality stuff. Even if you don't agree with him you'll get a laugh out of it.
The homegeny argument was just in response to the guys that want no countries and a one world government (which is the reason the EU is wanting to suck the power out of nations in the first place but don't get me started on TTIP, TPP, North American union, trilateral commission, Bilderberg, DAVOS, council on foreign relations and how it is all connected)
(Yes I think it was Norway I was on about )
We agree that both sides representatives aren't really likeable, I do like BoJo as a comedy character though.
I'm going to watch them on the tele on Thursday night though to see how it goes in the debates
Last edited by 316'sRegen; 08-06-16 at 11:22 AM.
I meant to say in the post before: I'm not going to change my mind on this, and I doubt you are either, so I'm not looking to debate - I just wanted to share some views from the opposite side. Hope you understand
Since I am replying though (), I'll address a couple of points where either you've asked me a question or maybe I wasn't clear before, but I won't try to argue the points that you've made:
I did say 'pretty much' every expert opinion - I shared a study that gives over 88% of 600 professional, academic economists (this article http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-boost-cameron reports the numbers better); you mentioned three names, only one of whom has any credibility (Keiser is a TV presenter with minimal financial experience, Celente started his own prediction institute and journal, but Schiff I will grant).
We set our own corporation tax already.
Here's a Guardian (no paywall) article on the same story as the FT one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...20bn-ucl-study. It doesn't matter what you believe, these are facts. So, again, the NHS and welfare state are under less financial strain, not more, due to EU immigration.
I would love to help 'true asylum seekers and viable workers that we need', but as I described, I just don't believe that would happen. After all, that's not what happens for non-EU immigrants now.