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Elliott
13-04-12, 10:23 PM
I've never found much use for wide players in 01/02, and a perusal of this forum seems to collaborate with this - wide men are not favoured by this game it seems. I would like however to use a wide player tactic in a long term game so had a few queries.

First of all, what are effective 4-4-2 tactics?

Second of all, I like to work out which players I want using the compare players feature. In this it gives the different positions as Goalkeepers, Full Backs, Defenders, Sweepers, Wing Backs, Defensive Midfielders, Midfielders, Attacking Midfielders, Wingers and Strikers.

If I am going to use ML and MR, do I want to compare players under the Midfielder category or under the Winger category?

If it is under Midfielder only, I guess this would change if I wanted those positions to have forward arrows to AML and AMR? (which I think I would). I assume I would really be looking at a combination of both for comparison's sake. Would this change if I wanted arrows to go to the FL and FR positions (i.e. would I need players that are M/F Ls or AM/FLs, rather than without the Fs).

Also, what is the significance of the Wing Back thing. Many DLs have also wing back skill, and sometimes D/DMLs do not, and often DMLs do not. What is the difference between a left sided wing back and a left sided defensive midfielder in CM 01/02, and thinking about it, does this difference also apply with left sided wingers and left sided attacking midfielders? Is it to do with whether they have forward arrows?

I hope I have asked those questions in ways that make sense!

info0
13-04-12, 10:25 PM
If you had looked hard enough you would have found Fodster/Cam F 442 around here :P.

Patinoz
13-04-12, 10:26 PM
regardless of his tactic question, the wingback thing he mentioned at the end, i wondered about that a few times myself.

your questions are good ones, unfortunately I dont know all the answers though.

I am not sure though if I'd rely on the compare feature in the game.

Trip
13-04-12, 10:28 PM
Elliot, don't bother using the "compare" function in CM, I'd say. Look for Off the Ball and Dribbling mostly. About the Wing-Back, I'm not sure either.

Dermotron
13-04-12, 10:29 PM
Be interested to hear a few opinions on difference between 20 for wingback (L/R) and 20 for DML or R.

Could possibly be that 20 for Wingback has an impact for fullback tactics that have forward arrows on them.


Also be interesting to see if it only impacts on whether a player gets picked as a DML/R in say the standard 5-3-2 tactic over a fullback with 20 for Wingback but no DM value

Kenny Dalglish's Smile
14-04-12, 08:18 AM
First of all, what are effective 4-4-2 tactics?

There is nothing wrong with default 442, no wibwob, no arrows. It makes good use of the wide men. It is a solid formation, capable of scoring goals, and also capable of keeping a lot of clean sheets. In using this you'll be in for a game where you will need to buy the better players to achieve a lot of success (note, the better players are not necessarily the most expensive), rather than the type of game where you just plug any one in and clean up first season like you can do with most of the Tapani influenced tactics.

Here's how I set it up. YMMV.

Team: Normal, Mixed, Pressing, Hard, NO Offsides, Counter, or MBB

GK - default
DR/L - Run forwards, no press, normal tackling, back on both attacking and defensive set pieces
DC - man marking, no press, normal tackling, forward on attacking set pieces
MR/L - Fwd runs, RWB, Cross ball, normal on all set pieces
MC - Fwd runs, try through balls, normal attacking set pieces, back on defensive
SC - Fwd runs, RWB, try through balls, normal attacking set pieces, forward on defensive set pieces
other SC - fwd runs, hold up ball, back on defensive set pieces, forward attacking set pieces



If I am going to use ML and MR, do I want to compare players under the Midfielder category or under the Winger category?

If it is under Midfielder only, I guess this would change if I wanted those positions to have forward arrows to AML and AMR? (which I think I would). I assume I would really be looking at a combination of both for comparison's sake. Would this change if I wanted arrows to go to the FL and FR positions (i.e. would I need players that are M/F Ls or AM/FLs, rather than without the Fs).

I don't think it matters that much. At the end of the day it's more about having the right stats* rather than being an AMR instead of an MRC or whatever. Personally I sometimes have 'pure wingers' on both sides - AMR, AML, or AM/FR/L, sometimes I have 2 more versatile players, like AMRLC, or MRLC.

*on the old boards there was a thread where Huntelaar was changed to a DC in the editor and he was still a boss forward because of his stats

wide men are not favoured by this game it seems.

I don't agree with that statement at all, by the way. If it was true AI teams would never win things with 442, but they do, probably more than any other default formation. But try it for yourself.


Look for Off the Ball and Dribbling mostly.
This guy starts at Scunthorpe on 3.9.68DB and pretty much has it all for a winger, regardless of his PA. Pace, crossing, dribbling, flair, technique... the rest might well come with some development. He'll set you back about 100k...
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6362/brough.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/brough.jpg/)

This lad is even better
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6481/moroni.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/moroni.jpg/)

Elliott
14-04-12, 11:00 AM
If you had looked hard enough you would have found Fodster/Cam F 442 around here :P.

I apologise for the forum faus pas - I actually found 442CJF immediately after posting and have set up a game to try it as we speak.

Thanks for your in-depth reply Kenny Dalglish's Smile.

I've really just been wondering how accurate the game's compare feature is. I tend to fall back on 4-1-2-3 BABE most of the time, and using the comparison feature and this seems to work just fine, although it is often the full backs that perform weakest and is that because some of them are not wing backs, and the same can be said for the centre mids.

I think I need to try to find a pretty definitive list of what attributes are important for what position and I shall be happy to plough ahead with 4-4-2.

info0
14-04-12, 02:50 PM
I would just say... It may also be due to wib/wob faults that fullbacks/wingbacks don't perform ;).

I am sorry for being rude too. Plus my post got deleted, where I wrote that CM engine doesn't differentiate between fullback/wingback or MR/AMR.

But that's just coming from someone who destroyed the game for himself. :P

Elliott
14-04-12, 05:00 PM
I would just say... It may also be due to wib/wob faults that fullbacks/wingbacks don't perform ;).

I am sorry for being rude too. Plus my post got deleted, where I wrote that CM engine doesn't differentiate between fullback/wingback or MR/AMR.

But that's just coming from someone who destroyed the game for himself. :P

No worries, I didn't get offended! I have to admit I am starting to stretch the game now, but that is why I came to this forum and was astounded to find an up to date database so its revived the game for me.

I have tried to 442CJF in the MLS with Kansas City and found it very effective, it creates a lot of chances. Nearly to end of season and the double is looking likely. I will give KDS's tactics a go on a bigger game as well.

I can't quite get away from comparing players using the inbuilt feature, partly because all the players available to me have near enough the same stats for the important attributes, and my best performer has a determination of only 6, so go figure. If doing the comparison does me out of the best players sometimes that will be a bit of a leveller for me I guess.

Dermotron
16-04-12, 06:26 PM
Wingback is a very confused attribute/position - check out Bermudez :confused:



List as an AML but listed amongst the defenders positionally

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Lowskys/CM0102/misc1.jpg

Just had 20 for Wingback (needs 15+ to have an impact)

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Lowskys/CM0102/misc2.jpg

AMC
16-04-12, 06:41 PM
Seen that before but didn't realise it was because the player was down as a wingback. Good find!

Elliott
17-04-12, 11:52 AM
This is one reason why I like to do the comparison thing. Helps you work out where they can actually play. The amount of DM RCs that are also attacking midfielders...

Elliott
30-05-12, 06:03 AM
There is nothing wrong with default 442, no wibwob, no arrows. It makes good use of the wide men. It is a solid formation, capable of scoring goals, and also capable of keeping a lot of clean sheets. In using this you'll be in for a game where you will need to buy the better players to achieve a lot of success (note, the better players are not necessarily the most expensive), rather than the type of game where you just plug any one in and clean up first season like you can do with most of the Tapani influenced tactics.

Here's how I set it up. YMMV.

Team: Normal, Mixed, Pressing, Hard, NO Offsides, Counter, or MBB

GK - default
DR/L - Run forwards, no press, normal tackling, back on both attacking and defensive set pieces
DC - man marking, no press, normal tackling, forward on attacking set pieces
MR/L - Fwd runs, RWB, Cross ball, normal on all set pieces
MC - Fwd runs, try through balls, normal attacking set pieces, back on defensive
SC - Fwd runs, RWB, try through balls, normal attacking set pieces, forward on defensive set pieces
other SC - fwd runs, hold up ball, back on defensive set pieces, forward attacking set pieces


I don't think it matters that much. At the end of the day it's more about having the right stats* rather than being an AMR instead of an MRC or whatever. Personally I sometimes have 'pure wingers' on both sides - AMR, AML, or AM/FR/L, sometimes I have 2 more versatile players, like AMRLC, or MRLC.

*on the old boards there was a thread where Huntelaar was changed to a DC in the editor and he was still a boss forward because of his stats

I just thought I'd give some feedback on this because I gave it a whirl. I started an all European leagues game with the intention of conquering as many countries as I can in turn. I started as RC Mechelen on March 2012 with tapani 2.19, using your tactics to the letter (apart from a dabble with 4-5-1 when I had a striker crisis). So far I have won D3, and am topping D2. So it appears to work rather well? Atm I am using a D/DM RC at MR (although comparison shows him to be a winger), so maybe you're right with regards to your wide player comments.

Kenny Dalglish's Smile
04-06-12, 09:41 AM
Glad to see you are experiencing something new :-)

Lokatzis
25-07-13, 03:36 PM
The game even at updated database is full of good wide players. In reality most of the teams play with wings. In newer CM games there is differences in some position. e.g. there are the wingback and winger position. In CM 01-02 we have only DML/R and AML/R. Scouts seem to comment some AML/R as wingers in reports but others as Midfielders. My question has to do with 442/433 wingers position as i don't see how a team full strikers as 433 default propose, could even win something. To conclude, does "wingers" role is referring to AML/R or it means FL/R? Also, did anyone happen to see how wingsback are listed? I have seen by scouting some wingbacks positioned as AML/R or D/M/R/L. When a player is positioned as wingback mean that is the one who can play the whole side? It happens to me that superb players (Lahm, Alaba, Pisczek, Jung, Dani Alves) in DR/L position played terrible when asked to play the whole side (4-1-2-1-2, 5-3-2), but others like Maggio, performed World Class.

Cam F
25-07-13, 03:57 PM
FodFod2 is best tac i've seen for overperforming wing back/wingers, probably because under the bonnet they are in totally different positions.

Lokatzis
25-07-13, 04:04 PM
FodFod2 is best tac i've seen for overperforming wing back/wingers, probably because under the bonnet they are in totally different positions.

Yes, i have used it but there you can place also MR/L. What sort of player is a winger in terms of position? Is it a MR/L? a AMR/L? or FR/L?

Cam F
25-07-13, 04:59 PM
I use any of those, I look more for 4 skills above 10 at least for my midfielders - dribbling, flair, creativity & passing. I don't go big teams, always starting (or staying) at a very small club usually with 2000 capacity ground or less.

Lokatzis
25-07-13, 06:13 PM
I use any of those, I look more for 4 skills above 10 at least for my midfielders - dribbling, flair, creativity & passing. I don't go big teams, always starting (or staying) at a very small club usually with 2000 capacity ground or less.

Well Sir, i have to say that your 433iodine is astonishing!! What are your main thoughts when you move players WOB/WIB? I try to make a clone of it with a little moving on side forwards but i mess it up.... I would like to hear any tip for how to organize my wib/wob boxes. Anything will be well appreciated!!!!

Nelinho
29-07-13, 11:42 PM
Well Sir, i have to say that your 433iodine is astonishing!! What are your main thoughts when you move players WOB/WIB? I try to make a clone of it with a little moving on side forwards but i mess it up.... I would like to hear any tip for how to organize my wib/wob boxes. Anything will be well appreciated!!!!

For me it has to do with the specific players involved -and their attributes.

Example: I have a player who is considered to be an AML, with high passing, crossing, dribbling attributes. However, he had been underperforming for like 3 months: Very low participation in the game, totally unacceptable pass completion, giving the ball away cheaply. His performance, a series of 6s and 7s (overall below 7). He was my nightmare, trying to find the proper way to use him (for example, cutting out crosses from player instructions etc.). Nothing, the guy kept playing below his theoretical strength, which obviously is related to his mental personality (if I remember well, he scores 1 in bravery), probably also to some of his hidden attributes.

Anyway, I had decided to start him in a match away (as ML in a 4-1-4-1 formation) and was once again checking his profile. Suddenly, I focused on 3 of his attributes: pace, acceleration and off ball, all three very high. The idea occured immediately, what I did is this: in the wib ball screen (middle area), the player is positioned higher than usual, while starting cutting in. This goes on until the final 4th, where he has become almost a 2nd SC (if you play with a lone SC, you could move him rightwards a bit, like opening a corridor for the AML). The same thing when the ball is in the R side, the player starts developing until he becomes almost a 2nd SC in the final 4th. With this tactical handling I have won matches, the guy has scored crucial goals, with his teammates getting him into one to one situations against the GK. It could work even better if opponent takes offensive risks with his wing backs, like opponent DR having a forward arrow. My player will find him out of position more than once, which is clear from the commentary and the match report (I have clear mental images of the plays he scored).

On the other hand, I have a couple of players operating in the opposite side as AMRs who seem to have playmaking skills (while lacking some pace). I use them deeper and wide, occasionally they will support the attack, but usually are axpected to feed the SC zone. They're incosistent though -but that's another discussion...

The same thinking process is followed regarding wing backs. For example, I have a DL with the higher dribbling rate in the league, also competitive in terms of pace, crossing, off ball etc. In the last game (playing at home), he was "pushed" forward in the wib screen. He had an immediate impact from minute 1, going past opponent MR and providing the assist for 1-0. Throughout the match, opponent MR was desperately trying to control him, had 12 (!) tackling attempts, received a yellow card etc. However, I would be very cautious to start this player in a tough away match, he's rather soft...

So basically what I'm saying is try to identify the strengths and weaknesses of your players. Their attributes is a source but match practice will give you the final information. That will define the player instructions as well as the way you will use them in the wib / wob screens. Also if you will use them in home or away matches, in tough matches or matches expected to be easier. Also if you will use them as subs (there are players having an impact even when entering the pitch in the final 10 minutes, others will remain “silent” even though they're introduced around 55-60').

But anyway, I understand your concern, getting the most out of players operating in the flanks (either in defense or in midfield) is a constant headache for me too, I'm perfectly sure for many member in this forum...

316'sRegen
30-07-13, 11:29 AM
I always use wing backs (DML/R) in a modified 352 (non wib/wob)

but have found that the best ones at wingback will be DR/DL in their natural position.

I find it interesting that after I leave a club, or sell one of these players, the next manager they deal with will almost always be a flat back 4 setup, and the players form will then dip dramatically as they are asked to become a DEFENDER :eek:

The little push from DR to DMR is a massive change in position, it releases the full back from defensive responsibilities and allows him to get forward and support the attack. When the new manager then takes the player and tries to make them an out and out defender it can take a season or two for the player to come back up to 7 or more av. rating.

The easiest way to get a decent winger or full back playing well?

Use them as wing backs :ok:

Dermotron
30-07-13, 11:42 AM
I do believe it's a design flaw in the game that Wingback and DML or DMR are not the same position. On the tactics screen yes the traditional wingback position is listed a DML and DMR but it's players with 20 for Wingback that get selected more often. A DL or DR with 20 for Wingback will get selected for the DML and DMR positions but if you give them 15 or more for DM they end up playing ML and MR in midfields with wide players. A player with 20WB, 1DM, 20M and 20AM will get selected at the DML or DMR position on the tactics screen.

DMC is indeed DMC on the tactics screen i.e. and player with DM and C over 15 is likely to be picked there.

In conclusion it appears for wide players DM refers to mentality as opposed to position. Performance wise I've found DR or DL and AML and AMR to perform better in the DML and DMR positions than those with DMR or DML as a position.

EDIT:



The easiest way to get a decent winger or full back playing well?

Use them as wing backs :ok:

:ok:

Whyme
07-07-14, 05:50 AM
Wingback is a very confused attribute/position - check out Bermudez :confused:



List as an AML but listed amongst the defenders positionally

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Lowskys/CM0102/misc1.jpg

Just had 20 for Wingback (needs 15+ to have an impact)

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Lowskys/CM0102/misc2.jpg


I've been mucking around with the GK Save Game Editor today and the fact he has an 'AML' position has nothing to do with having 20 as a Wingback.

If you go into the GK Save Game Editor and edit all the positions a player can play from Goalkeeper through to Attacker as '1', then for some reason he'll pop up as an AM in the game, regardless of what his value is for Wingback. Strange that in the game he still pops up between goalkeeper and defenders on the positions list.

mattcanary
14-09-14, 06:11 PM
I used to play CM01/02 as Norwich City on the original database.

Often used to buy Chris Sedgwick (from Rotherham) and Lionel Morgan (from Wimbledon) as wingers, amongst others. They normally did well for me, getting very good average ratings.

From memory, I believe they had good crossing, dribbling, pace, acceleration and stamina. I used to use run with the ball and cross ball instructions

Libertine
15-03-15, 09:40 PM
Is there a way of making left footed right wingers or right footed left wingers cut inside, rather than go to the byline? I would like them to cut inside and shoot from outside the box, run at goal, and play in overlapping full backs.

merkezekrem
16-03-15, 09:49 AM
Close crossing, give an arrow into the box and run with ball and long shots.

Fods
17-03-15, 06:45 AM
Try FodFod2CF (http://www.champman0102.co.uk/showthread.php?t=990)wingers always seem yo cut in and score loads of goals.

TheJuice
03-10-16, 02:17 AM
hello friends, where a winger is on the field?

Fods
03-10-16, 03:12 AM
On the wing

TheJuice
03-10-16, 03:15 AM
have a picture?

Fods
03-10-16, 03:53 AM
Plenty on the internet

Mark
03-10-16, 10:35 AM
On the edges of the pitch in the midfield.

Rxx
03-10-16, 04:39 PM
On a chiken!

SuperStranger
04-10-16, 03:46 PM
Rxx mmh.... delicious :rofl:

ally_uk
08-06-17, 05:01 PM
Wingers! No matter how I deploy them on the pitch they just don't seem to perform. I set them to run with ball, cross and play a few games when I check statistics the dribble is showing 0.00 wtf?

I sometimes set the Wingers to run diagonally into the box with the striker using arrows.

I also look for good dribbling, crossing, and pace, accleration, stamina.

So what gives? How do you get Wingers to do something? Lol

Dermotron
08-06-17, 05:04 PM
What line are they on, Midfield, Attacking Midfield or Forward?

ally_uk
08-06-17, 05:34 PM
Attacking mid left and right, on edge of pitch with diag arrows to striker.

Dermotron
08-06-17, 05:53 PM
If they are running towards goal definitely don't have cross ball on. Whats the point in crossing the ball 15 yards from goal?

Try run with ball, forward runs and hold up ball.

Topofthekop
08-06-17, 10:26 PM
Attacking mid left and right, on edge of pitch with diag arrows to striker.

Those arent wingers. They are inside forwards.

Wingers generally run up and down the wing, crossing balls into box. Inside forwards is what you have described, so no need to have "Cross Ball" like Dermo said.

ally_uk
08-06-17, 10:42 PM
http://lineupbuilder.com/new.php?sk=tx962

Look at that formation that is the correct position for wingers? I usually play attacking mid left right players there.

ally_uk
11-06-17, 12:42 PM
Still can't get em to perform lol

buddhapelle
14-06-17, 06:27 AM
Move the wingers to the defensive winger position with arrows up to the offensive position and see how that goes. I know it might sound weird but generally they play better there, perhaps due to the fact that the position in question is widely known to be overpowered.

ally_uk
14-06-17, 01:08 PM
Have been experimenting :)

I find if you play wingers either side of the MC postion with forward arrows they seem to perform ok.

I also find that if you have a lone striker and a AMC behind then playing forward left and right either side of the AMC with forward arrows is a good shout. In the 1st div I managed Rotherham signed up Nigel Hasselbaink he doesn't have the worlds best stats but played on the right next to AMC he bangs them in.

I play strictly non wib wob I hate wib wob for me it takes the fun out the game.

13Julia
15-06-17, 07:01 PM
Attacking mid left and right, on edge of pitch with diag arrows to striker.

If you're doing a typical 4-3-2-1 with AMR AML and arrows into the box - they should perform just fine. Maybe look for other players, also keep in mind that sometimes the game can random-roll such bad numbers at start, that your whole team may need to be exchanged, rare, but does happen.

Pokahontas
01-07-17, 08:45 PM
Move the wingers to the defensive winger position with arrows up to the offensive position and see how that goes. I know it might sound weird but generally they play better there, perhaps due to the fact that the position in question is widely known to be overpowered.

I don't know what is the deal with wingers, but they simply fail, at being consistent and at having both of them with a good rating

other overpowered positions are DMC and lone strikers... have a few of this positions in, and your on a good way to have positive runs