PDA

View Full Version : Tsigalko / van Nistelrooy Thread



Pages : [1] 2 3

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:00 PM
If i remember correctly it has been a matter of some discussion on this forum. Not a Tsigalko versus Van Nistelrooy debate mind you. But is has been said that in cm a player who has only certain attributes very high (Tsigalko) is better than a player who has all attributes high (Nistel.). I've always wondered if this was true. But i've never had a team filled with only Tsigalkos (players with limited numbers of high atts). Usually it is a mix. What i do believe is that the Tsigalkos will put in better individual performances. In a network game i once played with a friend he had Tsigalko and he was topscorer every season by far (he was absolutely amazing) but my friend wasn't the one with the most championships. If the 'Tsigalkos' are really better than the team performances should be better too, shouldn't they?

So what i'm getting at is this:
Would a team of Tsigalkos beat a team of Nistels?
The 'Tsigalko team' would have to be full of players with only certain high atts and the 'Nistel team' would be full of the complete players with high atts everywhere.
Then we could let both play the same formation at the same club for a couple of seasons. See which team does best?
And maybe someone'll find this interesting enough to do the testing for me, as I don't have the time or a speedy enough pc.

Making team nistel would be easy. Just give every player a current ability of 200. But making team tsigalko might be harder as i wouldn't know exactly which attributes to make 20 and which to leave low, and which current ability they should have. Maybe someone of the SIM update team could help with that?

I mean making a team full of players in the spirit of Tsigalko and Nistel. So in team tsigalko a DR would only have for example a 20 for tackling and positioning and the rest low. In team nistel a DR would have the works!

I hope i've made it clear now, i was afraid that my opening post would be confusing.

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:01 PM
Another problem could be the AI if you plan to let these 2 teams be controlled by it.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:02 PM
Good point. But if you ditch all players from the club and leave only the 'manufactured' ones, then the AI wouldn't have much of a choice, would they? But, perhaps It would be just better to test it by human management.

So, does anyone have any idea how I should construct the team tsigalko players?
Assuming i'll just play a default 442 the important atts should be (the atts that should be set at 20):
gk: han
drl: pos, tac
dc: pos, tac
mrl: dri, tec
mc(dm): pos, tac
mc(am): cre, pas
fc: dri, off
sc:off, fin. (or just a copy of Tsigalko http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif )

Am i in the right direction here? I guess someone from the SIM update team would have a better idea of creating a top performer based on limited atts.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:03 PM
Don't forget to give team tsigalko excellent mental attributes, since all of tsigalkos excel in that area, too. Some players, like Ibrahim Said, ruled the game almost entirely based on their Determination, Work Rate, Consistency, Important Matches etc.

churky

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:03 PM
To save the debate:

GK: Anticipation, Decisions, Handling, Heading, Positioning, Reflexes, Tackling, One on Ones
Full backs: Anticipation, Crossing, Decisions, Dribbling, Marking, Positioning, Tackling, Team work
Centre Backs: Anticipation, Decisions, Heading, Marking, Positioning, Tackling, Strength
Wingers: Agility, Balance, Crossing, Dribbling, Flair(If you please), Set pieces(If you please), Passing, Teamwork
Centre Mids: Have pretty much everything, but can vary if you want a more defensive or more attacking player
Strikers: Decisions, Finishing, Heading (depending on the striker), Movement (Depending on the striker) Natural Fitness, Strength (depending on the striker).

For the strikers and centre mids, you'd be best off doing one of each, so one more defensive mid, and one more attacking mid, and with the strikers, one pacey striker with lots of movement, and one big strong striker, that should give you decent outcomes if you do it the same for the other team. If you do require help creating the players just drop a PM to one of us and we'll help you out when possible.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:05 PM
Thanks Baz, this was exactly the kind of input i was hoping for.

So, it's all the mentioned atts at 20, and the rest deliberately low? And what should the ability be for the players?


GK: Anticipation, Decisions, Handling, Heading, Positioning, Reflexes, Tackling, One on Ones
Full backs: Anticipation, Crossing, Decisions, Dribbling, Marking, Positioning, Tackling, Team work
Centre Backs: Anticipation, Decisions, Heading, Marking, Positioning, Tackling, Strength
Wingers: Agility, Balance, Crossing, Dribbling, Flair(If you please), Set pieces(If you please), Passing, Teamwork
Centre Mids: Have pretty much everything, but can vary if you want a more defensive or more attacking player

So I should set the centre mid players at an ability of 200 while making one the DM and the other an AM?


Strikers: Decisions, Finishing, Heading (depending on the striker), Movement (Depending on the striker) Natural Fitness, Strength (depending on the striker.

So something like this:
F1: Decisions, Finishing, Heading, Natural Fitness, Strenght
F2: Decisions, Finishing, Off the ball, Natural Fitness

To recap:
-For team Tsigalko i'm looking for the best performing players using the least amount of high atts.
-Team nistel will be full of players with current ability at 200 and high atts all round.
-Then i want to test and see which team'll perform better.

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:07 PM
And what should the ability be for the players?

depends on the average of the ca-related atts, use less 20 and very lowish numbers for unwanted atts and you get lower average ---> lower ca

Patinoz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:08 PM
The ability for each player will vary depending on other stats, but it doesn't take long to do at all http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

As for the strikers you have it correct yes.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:08 PM
I don't know too much about the whole CA related stats thing. So maybe one you SIM guys (or anyone else who has experience with this) http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif can help me and create a team in the Tsigalko spirit. Meaning a team full of guys who only have certain high atts and low CA, but who will perform as the best.*
* If i understand correctly, a central midfield player will only perform great if he has a very high CA. So a MC doesn't have to be in the Tsigalko spirit. (unless someone claims it can be done)

And i will pitch this team against a team (team nistel) who'll be full of guys with a CA of 200.

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:09 PM
Just to be clear; a player can perform great no matter what CA, it`s just about the configuration. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:09 PM
Just to be clear; a player can perform great no matter what CA, it`s just about the configuration. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Does that mean you could create a team full of the most miserable looking specimens and beat a team full of CA200 monsters using the exact same tactic?
That is something i would like to see, in fact, i think that's what my whole post is about.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:10 PM
So you want a DMC like this bloke http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/Players/screenshot1.png

This is how he looks start of the season, will post another of how he looks end of season shortly.

Then at end of season he's like this:

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/screenshot2-1.png

That's with a 136CA http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:10 PM
For a DMC with only a CA of 136 he looks amazing! And he even got capped for England. And yes, this is exactly the kind of players i want. So do you think guys like Test DMC will beat guys with CA 200?

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:11 PM
Does that mean you could create a team full of the most miserable looking specimens and beat a team full of CA200 monsters using the exact same tactic?
That is something i would like to see, in fact, i think that's what my whole post is about.

I meant it the exact other way around, that high CA doesnt have to harm players performances. On the other hand you can still have a lot of 20`s, even with 1 CA.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:11 PM
I don't see why not as a guy with CA200 will have counter acting attributes in certain areas, but my bet is it would be quite even in the grand scheme of things.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:13 PM
If it is a fact that attributes can counter act. Then shouldn't it be possible to design a team that would outperform a CA 200 team?

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:13 PM
In theory yes. Many moons ago, in the early days of what is now SIM testing, we had a Fulham team in the league against the rest, based on the old style updating, which is now more the ODB release, and we got them performing to life. I could put my Test DMC into a ODB release and see how he forms in comparison if you'd like, it wouldn't take too long.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:13 PM
i think its too difficult to correctly create 22 players u required

maybe u can just pick them from 3968 database

lots of low CA freaks there

then pick highest CA players for each position

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:14 PM
i think its too difficult to correctly create 22 players u required

Not at all, it's 11 players with CA200 in a SIM DB or 11 players SIM style in an ODB release, that's one easy way to do so in reality.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:15 PM
In theory yes. Many moons ago, in the early days of what is now SIM testing, we had a Fulham team in the league against the rest, based on the old style updating, which is now more the ODB release, and we got them performing to life.

-So this Fulham team was filled with players specifically designed for optimal performance? And the rest of the teams were normal ODB style? And the Fulham team was the best?


I could put my Test DMC into a ODB release and see how he forms in comparison if you'd like, it wouldn't take too long.

- If you can spare the time and effort, yes please! http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif And why stop there? Can you create 1 team in the league with all players with max atts and ability and one with players like Test DMC? Then we'll know for sure!

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:16 PM
Fulham weren't the best no, but they played to life which back then was around 12th-14th in league

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:17 PM
Not at all, it's 11 players with CA200 in a SIM DB or 11 players SIM style in an ODB release, that's one easy way to do so in reality.

CA200 can mean nothing
it really depends on the attribute distribution...
if u make all CA-related attributes 20 in the editor, i am quite sure the player sucks

but if he has high value for 3-4 key atts, while keeping others low, then he will kill


EDIT: oh sorry I didn't notice it's your post. You must be more familiar with atts distribution than me http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:17 PM
All I know is that I want to see a team full of guys with CA 200 and maximum atts getting their a*ses kicked by a team of carefully designed super performers with lower CA and atts.

Making a team of the guys of the first category I can do, that's easy.
Making a team of the second variety I can't. All i know is Tsigalko, and maybe a couple of other freaks.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:17 PM
Just to show a quick example of a 'low CA player' up against those with higher CA, i've put the test DMC with 136CA, and two strikers both of 103CA into the ODB Feb release, and will post results once the season is ended, just to give you an idea.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:19 PM
Screenshots failed but here's the results in text.

DMC - Played 19 games in total (10 in league), 2 goals, 2 assistats, TPG 2.3, ave rating 6.98 (Cheik Tiote played majority of season) CA136
SC1 - Played 42 games in total (38 in league), 16 league goals, 1 International Cap 1 goal, ave rating 7.31 - CA103 (High movement & pace)
SC2 - Played 38 games in total (36 in league), 15 league goals, 1 International Cap 0 goals, ave rating 7.44 - CA103 (High heading, low movement)

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:20 PM
what happens if the def mid has 8 for consistency and the strikers 20? [lots of factors can affect the way players perform and you can dress it up with low ca if that floats yer boat]
indeed if the def mid is played in a 442 formation? where he will not perform anywhere near his potential if he he is stuck in as a mid cen.

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:20 PM
This was in a 442 formation Beez, it's your Feb release under Pardew with nothing else changed http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif, i'll give the three of them 10 for consistency and this time i'll get screenshots

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:21 PM
So you want a DMC like this bloke http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/Players/screenshot1.png

This is how he looks start of the season, will post another of how he looks end of season shortly.

Then at end of season he's like this:

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/screenshot2-1.png

That's with a 136CA http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Baz

Why would a player with CA136 have this many 20's http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/suspicious.gif

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:21 PM
Managed to get screenshots this time, obviously DMC will perform better in a 451, but you can get the gist of things from it, given the players have a low CA.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/screenshot3-1.png
http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/screenshot4-3.png
http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/cm0102baz/screenshot5-1.png

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:22 PM
Why would a player with CA136 have this many 20's http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/suspicious.gif

It's just in reply to the original question, where you can have 20's in the game with a low CA, ala Tsigalko, just like you can get numerous 20's in the game with a high CA ala van Nistelrooy.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:23 PM
Y don't u "use current lineups" to make the players starters?

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:23 PM
Why would a player with CA136 have this many 20's http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/suspicious.gif

only 4 20s are CA-related, while others CA atts are around 10

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:24 PM
Y don't u "use current lineups" to make the players starters?

Cantoner

Due to the fact Jussie wanted a comparison?

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:24 PM
but will the AI differentiate abilities?
I guess it should be tested with two different lineups, one with ODB players and one with SIM players, in order to compare

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:24 PM
The AI generally goes for the higher CA, however if the important attributes are high, as you can see in the strikers, they'll get picked over the higher CA, and of course reps play a role, but in the DMC example, it didn't effect it.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:24 PM
Was there another DMC with a higher rep to get ahead of him? A DMC with 17 for Defensive Midfielder will rarely get picked in the DMC role of a formation even his CA is 200 over a DMC with 20 for Defensive Midfield and a higher CR - quite simply the A1 won't deem him the better player

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:25 PM
In the Newcastle test it was Cheik Tiote, who is down as a MC, obviously if I made him a MC he'd probably get in, but again i'm just trying to give Jussie some examples of his original question http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Just to avoid confusion, I gave the players reps of 175.

Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:26 PM
It`s an interesting topic. About the 20`s, how many did Tsigalko have?

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:27 PM
Tsigalko had 2 20s in-game - Finishing and Off the Ball. Another rather high att was creativity. These are the CA-related ones. Otherwise he had awesome physical atts.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:27 PM
How many were 20 in the editor in total ? I mean how far can you go in terms of this with the player in question still being regarded as `Tsigalko like`?

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:27 PM
One twenty, one nineteen. Vision - fifteen. Also some zeroes.
Otherwise, depends on the intrinsic values, I would say. Anything above 50 is Tsigalko-like. (Although in one of my current .68 savegames he's got finishing = 90 and Off the Ball = 72)

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:28 PM
@ Baz, first of all thanks for the effort you've put into this! Do you think if you had a full squad of your Test players that they would easily win against a CA 200 max attributes team?

And for that matter, can anyone on this forum create a squad of players who can beat a CA200 max atts team? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif If, yes, then what's the lowest (CA and atts wise) you can go? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:28 PM
Jussie, to me something like 65-70 CA is the lowest I could go with my skills in tweaking. And yes, of course it's possible http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:29 PM
Since you invented this challenge maybe you should set a max for CA and atts lol. I`m having some fun with a 1CA/2PA player atm that has a shitload of 20`s .. I mean, is that acceptable ?

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:29 PM
BD, a shitload of CA 20s? I've managed to have two at most at game-start with 1 CA

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:30 PM
Since you invented this challenge maybe you should set a max for CA and atts lol. I`m having some fun with a 1CA/2PA player atm that has a shitload of 20`s .. I mean, is that acceptable ?

BD

Man, i would love to see a team full of 1CA/2PA guys with 20's in the right places kicking the sheight out of a 200CA 20's everywhere team! Do you really think it's possible? How does your 1CA/2PA guy perform then?

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:30 PM
Really finding this thread interesting although I would like to see the proposed challenge made:

A team of Key Attribute players vs. A team of High Attribute player.

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:31 PM
I`ve done things a bit different, just because I was interested in the outcome. First I wanted to see what all this Tsigalko talks were about, so I deleted all the Roma attackers in 3.9.60 and put Tsigalko there with 200 CR and WR. The AI didnt agree with me and kept buying these 30+ yo strikers for 250-500k that look like shit and used them instead. So I tried a lower rep club: Liverpool. What better league to play in against his big rival van Nistelrooij. So he did ok there in terms of goals, even outscored Ruud in season 2 but once Liverpool got some cash they bought Rebrov and ... drumroll ... Tony Thorpe and that seems the end of Tsigalko`s career. Will holiday on to see what happens but one thing is for sure. The AI doesnt like Tsigalko not even with 200 WR. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:31 PM
I think the AI mainly judges players on reputation and ability. So jacking up his reputation will only take him so far. As soon as it starts dropping others will get chosen ahead of him. That's why if you want to test a Tsigalko like player you'll have to force the AI to use him. Either by controlling the team yourself or by clearing all competitors from the squad and holidaying without letting the assman buying new players.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:31 PM
I once did a test where i created two types of players. PLayer one i gave an ability of 200 and 1 for all his atts. Player 2 I gave a 1 for ability and max 20 for all his atts. Back then I didnt know anything about CA related atts or anything. So i was quite surprised when the CA200 guy turned a lot better attribute wise then i expected, and the CA 1 guy somewhat worse. Both guys i deployed at a Scottish nonleaguer. Very quickly the CA200 guy was bought by Dundee. He played every match while constantly performing awful due to him lacking a lot of relevant atts. The CA 1 guy hardly ever got a match even when i placed him at a 3rd division club. But he did when played perform a lot better then CA 200 guy.

From this i concluded that the AI doesnt look at attributes, but at ability. Later i found out that reputation matters as well.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:32 PM
Just out of curiosity i've done the following. since i can't completely remember my previous test, and i can't find it anywhere I'll do a new one. Don't know if it will be of much use. But hey a lot of useful research starts out that way http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif.

So what have I done:
I've just created 8 players. All Strikers, all Scottish, and they all start at Albion Rovers in the Scottish 3rd Division.

Player one will have a low ability(1) and low atts (1) but high reputation (200).
Player two will have a low ability(1) and high atts (20) and low reputation (1), and so on for all possible combinations of the three criteria.
The eventual number of players being 8 (including two control players who either have everything low or high)

Now i'm gonna load up the game and see what happens. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Edit:

Here they are:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5095/abilityandattributes.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3621/controlgod.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6533/controlloser.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/649/onlyability.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4282/onlyattributes.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4877/onlyreputation.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4219/reputationandability.jpg
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9381/reputationandattributes.jpg

One week in and Only Reputation has made a 550K transfer to Compostela where he's now worth 7Mhttp://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Control God is in high demand also as is expected

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:33 PM
Never thought this would happen but it seems the AI dropped Rebrov in season 6.


http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6674/maximseason6.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/847/maximseason6.jpg/)


Not sure how accurate these world reps are after a few seasons in cmscout but it says 117 for Tsigalko.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:33 PM
Just finished the first half of the season.

This is what has happened so far.

12-7-2001 Only Reputation moves to Compostela for 550k and is worth 7M
He plays every match and doesn't score. He absolutely sheight. But his rep keeps him in the team. Eventually it will drop, as will he.


15-7-2001 Ability and Attributes moves to Portsmouth for 400K and is worth 2.2M
His stats at Portsmouth are impressive apps 20 gls 14 ass 9 mom 7 avr 7.80



22-7-2001 Control God moves to Bayern for 1.2M and is worth 31,5M
Nothing surprising here


12-8-2001 Reputation and Ability moves to Osasuna for 1.6M and is worth 19,5M
He playes all 18 matches and scores 2 with 1 assist and 1 MoM. average rating 7.22. Not a goalscorer but not a total disaster either. I expect him to remain at top level due to his ability, but he'll never be a great striker.



26-10-2001 Reputation and Attributes moves to Inverness for 200k and is worth 825K.
I was surprised he wasn't picked up earlier and by a better team. He does perform good though. 5gls out of 13matches for Albion Rovers and 8 of 10 for Inverness, with ratings of 7.54 and 7.73 respectively


Only Ability still remains at Albion Rovers. He gotten himself into trouble with the manager and has only come on once as a substitute, despite being a star player. Blackburn Rovers are interested though. I expect him to end up at top clubs without ever playing well.



Only Attributes is still at Albion Rovers and is performing strong. apps 19 gls 9 ass 2 mom 3 avr 7.53. But I don't expect he'll ever be properly rewarded for his performances.


Control Loser also performs as expected http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:34 PM
Yeah, nothing really surprising there. We've all noticed at some point or another that AI picks players based on their rep and CA/PA, not their actual performance.
I'm sure most of us have had a striker who scored right and left, but no one ever got interested in him because of his lowish CA. Alternatively, you can sell a young regen with high PA for ridiculous amount of money, even if he had never played senior football.

churky

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:34 PM
What i do find interesting though, is that the players with CA200 and their high CA related atts score a lot less then the guys that rely solely on their non-CA related attributes. So I guess the secret for making a goalscorer lies more with the non-CA related atts than the CA related.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:34 PM
Reduce the non-attacker attributes and the goals will follow

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:35 PM
End of season:



http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4219/reputationandability.jpg
His ability hasn't made him the best of strikers but it keeps him in the squad. He's only willing to stay at the club currently.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/9381/reputationandattributes.jpg
his reputation has sunk before he could get to a bigger club. So i guess he's stuck now.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5095/abilityandattributes.jpg
This guy is just amazing actually. And so far kind of disproving the idea that atts can counteract eachother since he has it all!

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/649/onlyability.jpg
Finally got his transfer after much moaning. But shows that the CA atts dont make you a goalscorer.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4282/onlyattributes.jpg
Was the best player in the league. Wonder if the game will ever notice this guy.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4877/onlyreputation.jpg
Well, here we see just how biased the game can be towards reputation. And he even wants to move to a bigger club!


The control are doing as expected. And I thought some more about the CA200 players and their lack of goals. Maybe they just lack something like stamina. Because the guys that have CA200 and max atts perform just fine.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:36 PM
What formation are Portsmouth playing? Is it 1 upfront that the A&A guy is doing so well?

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:36 PM
Hmm, we may have a problem http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif. I just have Scottish league loaded so the Portsmouth matches aren't fully processed i guess. So we cant take the results seriously. Even so the manager preffered formation is a 532.
The God control on the other hand who plays for Bayern has played in the CL so his stats in the CL are worth something and they're: apps 19 gls 10 ass 6 mom 2 avr 8.21. but nothing much to start making any rash conclusions.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:37 PM
The best I`ve seen Ruud do so far is around 8.50-8.60 in the EPL, so that guy should do a lot better when you run England.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:38 PM
What i do find interesting though, is that the players with CA200 and their high CA related atts score a lot less then the guys that rely solely on their non-CA related attributes. So I guess the secret for making a goalscorer lies more with the non-CA related atts than the CA related.

Jussie

coz as u assign 1 to non-CA atts, they are absolute 1

but assigning 1 to CA atts, they will be driven up by the CA

and even got ~240 in cm3 savegame editor (a hidden value for the game and all other editors), just similar to the value for all CA att assigned to 20

(some people said that this kind of values in the editor is the true value for those CA atts, which means assigning all the CA atts to 20 and 1 in two different cases will yield similar true values...

but according to your testing, seems all CA atts 20 is better than all 1.

but probably if change "all 1" to finishing and off the ball 20,
then this player will be better than "all 20" in terms of scoring

anyway, very interesting work! keep going http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gifhttp://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:38 PM
It was a while back that I did some testing on a database this old, but I`m hooked now. Thanks for that Jussie. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

After the test where I tried to get the AI to like Tsigalko at Roma and Liverpool, I also started to work on that team full of Tsigalko-like players. I wonder/wondered how easy it would be to win the EPL using only players like Tsigalko(lowish CA/few high atts).

Does anyone that played/plays 3.9.60 a lot know what team is usually the best EPL Team ? From what I`ve seen so far it looks to be between Utd and Arsenal.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:38 PM
I only played with 3.60 before coming to this forum last year

best one should be Utd

one time I didn't even know wt's the attributes about, what's the settings in tactics, and used some HK and Asian players
but the result was still good. Just 1 mark behind Arsenal

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:39 PM
It was a while back that I did some testing on a database this old, but I`m hooked now. Thanks for that Jussie. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

After the test where I tried to get the AI to like Tsigalko at Roma and Liverpool, I also started to work on that team full of Tsigalko-like players. I wonder/wondered how easy it would be to win the EPL using only players like Tsigalko(lowish CA/few high atts).

Does anyone that played/plays 3.9.60 a lot know what team is usually the best EPL Team ? From what I`ve seen so far it looks to be between Utd and Arsenal.

BD

Your welcome BD, btw the version i'm playing is 3.9.68 the latest official update. Tsigalko was still in there, and still a goalscoring master. The best teams i guess are Man Utd and AS Roma.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:39 PM
Good stuff, because I had started with Utd already. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

So the goal is to win the EPL with Man Utd only using Tsigalko-like players. Since that is still a little vague for me, `Tsigalko-like`, I`ve set some rules for myself:

- All players must have 71 CA (Tsigalko had 70)
- All players must have 144 PA (Tsigalko was a -1 so 120-200 towards the lower end led me to that number)
- All players must have the same position, sides, home reputation, world reputation and CA unrelated attributes.
- All players are being controlled by Sir Alex himself, so I`m not taking control over Utd myself at all.

Think that covers it so far. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:40 PM
Should do it easily http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif If you make the wingers properly http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif



Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:41 PM
I thought that at some point too, but it`s pretty hard. First thing I did was just change the CA/PA`s and run a few tests. They ended 9th and 10th a few times, using a lot of weird players for whatever reason lol. I had to remove the money too, because they started signing players right away. After selecting some players for the first team I have now done 16 players and just ran the first test. Giggs, Ruud and Veron did a good job(7.75+)but a lot of the others werent even used. Sir Alex works in mysterious ways. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:41 PM
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4262/utdg.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/utdg.jpg/)

So close ..

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:42 PM
Needless to say they fucked up, so it was back to the drawing board .. some tweaks later and a new season; they did it. Screenshots will follow.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:42 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/party.gif

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/221/utdchamps.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/utdchamps.jpg/)

Top players:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5621/ruudt.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/ruudt.jpg/)

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/690/giggsy.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/giggsy.jpg/)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8030/keanef.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/keanef.jpg/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:43 PM
is it all starting 11 changed to this style? or even more?

seems the holiday results are just normal

and Giggs reli have low CA...which can make his defensive atts as low as 5 @o@

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:43 PM
All of Utd`s players have 71 CA/144 PA, but only 16 of them I have restyled the 15 CA atts for. I also had a look at GK`s editor for you and Trip and 2 players have 1 attribute of 82 strength, which is pretty damn strong right ?

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:43 PM
So winning the league with a team full of players with a Tsigalko-like CA was possible. I doubt they were strong enough to beat a team of players with higher CA and the right atts in the right places, since those can easily score average ratings over 8.00 and only my van Nistelrooy did that.

My next team might be able to do better, for a start with the same 71 CA/144 PA, maybe with less in the future. Also I would like to see how far 18`s and 17`s for the CA atts can go instead of the 20`s and 19`s. I think I`ll need the atts not related to CA but key for that position to be the best. So I went for a look around the 3.9.60 data to find 33 players to form a squad up for a new challenge. What better club to put them at than Man City, which I have promoted to EPL for the occasion. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:44 PM
BD, which guys had the 82s? That's just shy of maximum strength btw http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Could you give the configurations that produced the 82s?

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:44 PM
I think it was Ruud`s finishing and Giggs dribbling. I used the same combo`s for all players so far; three 1s/five 5s/four 9s/one 18/one 19/one 20.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:44 PM
This is some great work BD! glad to see someone is taking on the challenge. Impressive stuff already with ManU. It'll be interesting to see if you can do it better with City.
Btw, from the little test I did with the players, you could see that with a CA of 1 you can still get all the non-CA related atts up to 20. And with only those atts a player can perform quite good already. So i guess you only have to add a couple of CA-related atts to 20 to make the players worldclass.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:45 PM
CA 1 doesn't mean all CA-atts have to be 1
the strongest attribute can be made close to 10,
just like CA200 not making all CA-atts 20

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:46 PM
Actually, 20 is the strongest possible in-game value for an attribute at CA=1.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:46 PM
This is some great work BD! glad to see someone is taking on the challenge. Impressive stuff already with ManU. It'll be interesting to see if you can do it better with City.
Btw, from the little test I did with the players, you could see that with a CA of 1 you can still get all the non-CA related atts up to 20. And with only those atts a player can perform quite good already. So i guess you only have to add a couple of CA-related atts to 20 to make the players worldclass.

Jussie

Cheers mate, it`s been very interesting so far. About the atts; me and Patinoz recently discovered that some of the non-CA related atts have an affect on the starting value of the CA-related atts. It was a quite huge affect in certain cases where allmost all 15 CA atts went up 1 or 2 pts in comparison to setting these non-CA atts just a little lower. I wouldnt be surprised if it also works like that the other way around, in other words; if you put all non-CA atts at 20 you`ll be allowed less in CA atts and vice versa.



CA 1 doesn't mean all CA-atts have to be 1
the strongest attribute can be made close to 10,
just like CA200 not making all CA-atts 20

Cantoner

What do you mean with that ? Why 10 ? Even with the CA 1 guy I still had two 20`s for CA atts.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:47 PM
So back to man city .. I`ve restyled 9 of the 33 players so far and because of that I`ll only talk about their performances. The others look funny in many cases just because too many high numbers for CA atts dont work well with a CA of 71. I`ve just ended a season:


http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2719/leaguetable9tweaked.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/leaguetable9tweaked.jpg/)


Not bad considering I still have 24 amateurs in my team. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Top performers:


http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5337/amorosof.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/amorosof.jpg/)

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4475/ruud.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/ruud.jpg/)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2673/juninhoz.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/juninhoz.jpg/)

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4936/petrovhhr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/petrovhhr.jpg/)


Petrov and Juninho play in the same position. It looks weird because he shows as DMC but his AM is actually 20 where DM and M are only 15. Dunno why they did that tbh. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

Another weird thing is that Mancini(AI)bought some piss poor striker for like 100k and played him as 5th choice SC ahead of Batistuta and Larsson. Shevchenko and Hasselbaink played a few games as 3rd and 4th choice. I`ve deliberately given none of the 6 strikers the same top 3 CA atts, to see what works best. The same for my 3 AMC`s(Veron/Juninho/Petrov). I might tweak some reps to see how others do that arent playing atm.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:47 PM
Can't you just instruct the Assman to not buy and/or sell any players?

Btw, it's quite daunting to see ManU reach 96pts. Do you think you can get the City guys up that high?

And thanks for explanation on the CA atts.

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:47 PM
I dont wanna tell Mister Mancini what to do, he`s the expert. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Utd is there despite the fact I stole Ruud and Veron. Yorke does the same job for them so I do wonder how much of Ruud`s magic is actually his on 3.9.60. In season 2 we actually won the league but they bought and used some high CA DC I never heard of, so that doesnt count imo. A lot of players were sold and some put on loan. Funny to see Buffon/Gerrard being out on loan at Millwall/Bradford. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I`ve given Batistuta and Larsson a higher current reputation(what influences who managers use)and I`m starting a new one.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:48 PM
Cheers mate, it`s been very interesting so far. About the atts; me and Patinoz recently discovered that some of the non-CA related atts have an affect on the starting value of the CA-related atts. It was a quite huge affect in certain cases where allmost all 15 CA atts went up 1 or 2 pts in comparison to setting these non-CA atts just a little lower. I wouldnt be surprised if it also works like that the other way around, in other words; if you put all non-CA atts at 20 you`ll be allowed less in CA atts and vice versa.




What do you mean with that ? Why 10 ? Even with the CA 1 guy I still had two 20`s for CA atts.

BD

is it one for finishing? and passing? I remember that many atts will fall if CA is too low...
reli want to know more about these

and I just thought that 10 is enough...giving 20 to CA1, that attribute strength will be too ridiculously strong.

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:49 PM
Even tho I`m using the same 15 numbers for every player, some end up with one 20 and two 16`s in-game while others like Ruud can end season 2 with three 20`s. No idea why this happens tbh but it would be great if we found out. I havent found another player where all the three top CA atts(18/19/20)were allowed to grow to 20.

I didnt have too much time to work on this but I have restyled 4 more players; all of my 3 leftbacks and 1 rightback. Will post screenies after a new test.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:49 PM
A new star was born:


http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1551/georgatos.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/georgatos.jpg/)


Still ended 30 pts behind Utd tho. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:50 PM
Looks like there is some competition for the leftback position:


http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3451/robertocarlosy.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/robertocarlosy.jpg/)


And we finally have Cafu joining in the fun.


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/130/cafux.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/cafux.jpg/)


20 points behind Utd that time. We`re coming UPPP !! http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:51 PM
Petrov and Juninho play in the same position. It looks weird because he shows as DMC but his AM is actually 20 where DM and M are only 15. Dunno why they did that tbh. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

BD

That's because no matter what stats they have for other positions, if they have at least 15 for DM they'll show up as a DM in game no matter that their AM stat is.

I think it's the same for Dyer and Gerrard on 3.9.60 as well as Petrov as you've already seen.

AMC

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:51 PM
And van Bommel, Ze Roberto etc. You got that right

KDS

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:52 PM
What position stats do you need to input to get a FC in the game - I seem to be able to get AM/FC but not an outright FC - good work on the above anyway, i'm currently inputting my sunday league team using the above philosophy, lets see what happens!

evansp3700

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:52 PM
15+ for AM and 20 for SC, with no number or a number less than 14 in the M rank if you'd like them to play out wide on occasions.


Baz

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:53 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AMC http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=315481#post315481)
That's because no matter what stats they have for other positions, if they have at least 15 for DM they'll show up as a DM in game no matter that their AM stat is.
I think it's the same for Dyer and Gerrard on 3.9.60 as well as Petrov as you've already seen.

http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kenny Dalglish's Smile http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=315495#post315495)
And van Bommel, Ze Roberto etc. You have that right.

I know why it happens but what I dont get is why they made it this way. In the case of van Bommel its ok because his DM and M are also 20`s, Gerrard only has 10 for AM and 20`s for M and DM, Ze Roberto plays on the wing so wether he show as DML or AML is not so relevant imo. Dyer is indeed more the same as Petrov, their dominant position is clearly AM but a 15 overwrites the 20 that just doesnt feel right. The AI uses Petrov in the AM position but as a user you dont know that.


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by evansp3700 http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=315544#post315544)
What position stats do you need to input to get a FC in the game - I seem to be able to get AM/FC but not an outright FC - good work on the above anyway, i'm currently inputting my sunday league team using the above philosophy, lets see what happens!

http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Baz http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=315547#post315547)
15+ for AM and 20 for SC, with no number or a number less than 14 in the M rank if you'd like them to play out wide on occasions.


What Baz said, but also 20 for attacker and 20 free role makes a player FC, if you dont wanna use AM.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:54 PM
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5503/leaguedx.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/leaguedx.jpg/)


12 points http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

And that with still 60% amateurs in the squad. Been desperately trying to get Mancini to play Batigoal and finally succeeded:


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6452/batil.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/batil.jpg/)


Too bad he retires after season 1 .. cant help but think what he could do in 4-5-1 .. might try that at some point.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:55 PM
After that last first season I posted the table of I decided to have a look at season 2 and 3, to see how some of my creations progress. They won the league in season 2, and guess the final of the CL in season 3:


Spoiler:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2938/clfinalseason3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/clfinalseason3.jpg/)



Bastards !! http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



There were quite some great performances that 3rd season tho:


http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5254/larssonseason3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/larssonseason3.jpg/)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1407/veronseason3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/veronseason3.jpg/)

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/669/ruudseason3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/ruudseason3.jpg/)


Larsson wasnt that special but I dont think he did well before, so it`s good to know he can do a good job. That 21 league assists for Veron and the 54 goals for Ruud are just .. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif .. among the best I`ve seen cpu controlled.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:55 PM
It`s especially the first season that is hard, when the players develop. Once in season 2 they do a lot better already, even the ones I havent touched yet. I`ve chosen the 4-1-2-1-2 for this challenge so I dont have any wingers, the wingbacks can do that job and from the Cafu and Georgatos/R.Carlos screenshots you can see they do just that. I think I`ll do the other 2 rightbacks tonight and hopefully 3 goalkeepers. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:56 PM
Sorry for the lack of updates, but some things needed my attention. Since I have re-styled 5 more players, the remaining 2 rightbacks Ibarra and P.Ferreira and my 3 DMC`s van Bommel/Vieira/Cambiasso. The result was that we finally were able to win the league:


http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7079/tabledg.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/tabledg.jpg/)


Ill put up some player performance screenies later ...

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:56 PM
wow thats some good stuff.hoW did city do against united?

Jussie

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:57 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Blue Demon http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=315828#post315828)
I`ve chosen the 4-1-2-1-2 for this challenge so I dont have any wingers, the wingbacks can do that job and from the Cafu and Georgatos/R.Carlos screenshots you can see they do just that. I think I`ll do the other 2 rightbacks tonight and hopefully 3 goalkeepers. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
I'm guessing you chose 4-1-2-1-2 as Mancini's favorite formation in the previous tests, right?

When you began playing yourself, did you use the unedited 4-1-2-1-2 as well? (The 86-point title-winning season)

Great great research BTW. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to explore CM myself anymore, but just reading these threads makes me happy.

I was hoping to explore the topic of "Countering Certain Formations" (e.g. what formation is effective against 4-4-2, etc.), maybe someone will find it interesting and run some tests on it: http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/show...ing-Formations (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/13986-Countering-Formations)

emanon

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:57 PM
wow thats some good stuff.hoW did city do against united?

Jussie



Utd still proved to be the hardest opponent:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7044/manutd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/manutd1.jpg/)

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9348/manutd2n.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/manutd2n.jpg/)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7618/manutd3w.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/manutd3w.jpg/)

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5649/manutd4a.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/manutd4a.jpg/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:58 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by emanon http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=318053#post318053)
I'm guessing you chose 4-1-2-1-2 as Mancini's favorite formation in the previous tests, right?

Yes I did. I also play around with current reputations and role models to get the right players playing. The only thing I avoid is touching atts that are unrelated to CA and I`m not taking control of the team.


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by emanon http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=318053#post318053)
When you began playing yourself, did you use the unedited 4-1-2-1-2 as well? (The 86-point title-winning season)

I only started playing myself to see if this team is strong enough yet to break the 108 goals in 1 season with 1 player record. I got to 87 with Ruud. After that I returned to AI control, so this EPL win with 86 points is AI controlled again.


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by emanon http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=318053#post318053)
Great great research BTW. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to explore CM myself anymore, but just reading these threads makes me happy.

Very much appreciated. It`s been a while since we had a thread like this and as allways I`m loving it. Great to know there are still some people interested in this kind of research. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:59 PM
So after that EPL win and having 18 Tsigalko-like players now I decided to give that 108 goals record another try. So far I`m doing quite well, with this ratio I`ll need 63 games to reach that 108 tho, not sure Ruud will play that many.


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5117/ruud2543.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/ruud2543.jpg/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:59 PM
well the results are a bit disappointing
so CA really has an effect on performance,

coherent with my test that CA200 messi (avg. 8.7-9) is stronger than CA1 messi (8.3-8.6), with the all attributes assigned to 20.

Cantoner

Patinoz
01-07-12, 03:59 PM
How is that disappointing or even surprising ? It`s about the right atts in the right places. Why not limit the 1CA player to only two 20`s and retry ?

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:00 PM
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/39/ruud4276.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/ruud4276.jpg/)

108, Ruud is coming. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:00 PM
200 should be possible really, considering this Ruud is far from ideal with only 71 starting CA and 3 strong CA atts. Same goes for his teammates ofcourse, of which 15 havent even been assigned 3 strong atts yet. Some of those 15 look like amateurs.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:01 PM
so the CA related atts are ?

evansp3700

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:01 PM
For Ruud it is:


Code:

Finishing 20
Movement 19
Heading 18
Decisions 9
Dribbling 9
Penalties 9
Passing 9
Long Shots 5
Anticipation 5
Crossing 5
Throw ins 5
Creativity 5
Marking 1
Positioning 1
Tackling 1

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:02 PM
Can`t believe this is happening. Ruud has 105 goals with 1 game to go - the CL final:


http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5600/ruud661105.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/ruud661105.jpg/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:03 PM
Close, but no sigar ... that 1 game he had to be rested mightve cost him.


http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9352/ruud671107.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/ruud671107.jpg/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:04 PM
BD, could you highlight which attributes you think are key for different player roles?

I know Baz highlighted them earlier (which has proven very useful) but I'd like a second opinion?

GK: ?
DL/DR: ?
DC: ?
DMC: ?
MC: ?
ML/MR: ?
AMC: ?
FC (pacey): ?
FC (strong): ?

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:04 PM
Something like this(mainly based on cpu management):

GK:

Handling
Reflexes
One on ones
Consistency
Anticipation
Positioning
Decisions
Determination
Agility
Jumping

DL/DR:

Pace
Natural fitness
Acceleration
Stamina
Technique
Teamwork
Tackling
Dribbling
Work rate
Determination

DC:

Strength
Heading
Jumping
Natural fitness
Teamwork
Tackling
Stamina
Marking
Positioning
Determination

DMC:

Teamwork
Stamina
Natural fitness
Passing
Technique
Decisions
Positioning
Marking
Anticipation
Tackling

MC:

Stamina
Natural fitness
Teamwork
Technique
Passing
Decisions
Acceleration
Dribbling
Anticipation
Work rate

ML/MR:

Pace
Natural fitness
Acceleration
Stamina
Technique
Dribbling
Passing
Decisions
Crossing
Movement

AMC:

Stamina
Technique
Passing
Natural fitness
Movement
Teamwork
Decisions
Dribbling
Acceleration
Pace

FC (pacey):

Finishing
Nat. fitness
Stamina
Technique
Movement
Decisions
Acceleration
Pace
Dribbling
Agility

FC (strong):

Finishing
Nat. fitness
Stamina
Technique
Movement
Decisions
Strength
Heading
Jumping
Passing

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:04 PM
I think any combination of 3/4 out of the top 10 I listed for those positions can make a great player. Certain atts make better combo`s than others, because they somehow collaborate better. Think of set pieces and long shots, jumping and heading ...

Also one position isnt the other when it comes to how many atts need to be high for a good performance, and I think that is where this thread is taking me next; Trying slightly different CA (61-81) with 2 or 4 high CA atts instead of the 3(18/19/20)Ive been using so far.

Not before Ruud breaks that goal record tho ... http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:05 PM
Time to bring this back to life. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif


Like stated before I had plans to create more Tsigalko-like players with slightly different CA`s and 2/3/4 strong key CA atts. I have to thank Trip for his contribution in all we found so far in this research and also JohnLocke for his tool to mass-lower PA(CA). I now have taken the SIM Update and mass-lowered the PA(CA) to create a more Tsigalko friendly environment. Hopefully my creations will now be recognised by the AI in the long run.

I will start by creating 22 central defenders that all have a different combination of CA and key atts in 2 divisions; Spain and England. The first 2 are Pique and Terry, who will have the following changes:

CA 63/PA 123, heading/tackling 20, positioning/marking/decisions 11, four 6`s, five 4`s and a 1.


More to follow ...

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:06 PM
deems,

you know how you have a model for a pacey striker and a strong one,

what happens for the other positions if players aren't pacey yet the model has pace/acc as one of the att's?

such as def r/l,

what would happen if you had a great fullback who wasn't the fastest? he would be missing 2 of the key att's for that position would he not?

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:06 PM
Tbh I only did the 2 types of strikers because Jesus asked for them. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Anyone who is a great player, but lacks certain key atts(irl or cm)is likely to be amazing in other key atts. Beckham is a good example of a great player that lacked key atts that are typical for a winger.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:06 PM
would they not underperform tho if the key att's for that position wer low? ok other att's may be high but if they really are key att's and some are missing surely it will affect a players performance? otherwise are they really that key if a player can stll perfrom even if some of them are low?

also in the screens i see, are the strikers being tested against defenders who are top notch and have been developed that way or just ordinary defenders?

cheers

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:07 PM
Have you got a list of key attributes for a DMC? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:07 PM
Many rate Tsigalko above Tó Madeira as a striker.
But in a few large 'striker simulations' I've done (load a tactic where SC scores loads, and go on holiday without selling) Tó nearly always has a better career, eg, scores more especially.
This could be due to holidaying tho, but still interesting.

Also, both got dwarfed by 3.9.68 Skalidis and Papadopoulos. Papadopoulos has the slight edge because he isn't injury phrone like Skalidis and therefore gets more matches in and, in my tests, a better career. But Skalidis is the most efficient lethal striker in all of the tests

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:08 PM
in these tests tho, is he playing against other players that have been made like him? or just run of the mill defenders?

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:08 PM
@ Jesus; control+F DMC http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif

@ Ruben; I dont think it matters who of the low CA players is actually the best, this thread could well have the name of To instead of Tsigalko. Ruud is often spoken of like he is the god of the .60 and .68 but when I snatched him for my Man City Tsigalko style team, Andrew Cole got the same freaky performances as Ruud. So teammates also play a huge role.

@ Beez; what I want to do is create loads of players this way, so also defenders to stop the Tsigalko-like attackers. I have created 12 DC`s so far and I`m running tests now. All have been created with only 2 strong CA atts, the rest unchanged. I will show some screenshots of the test I`m running right now once the 1st season is over.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:08 PM
deems,
what is the diff between the 10 key atts, and the ca15 att's in making a player perform better?

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:09 PM
To save the debate:

GK: Anticipation, Decisions, Handling, Heading, Positioning, Reflexes, Tackling, One on Ones
Full backs: Anticipation, Crossing, Decisions, Dribbling, Marking, Positioning, Tackling, Team work
Centre Backs: Anticipation, Decisions, Heading, Marking, Positioning, Tackling, Strength
Wingers: Agility, Balance, Crossing, Dribbling, Flair(If you please), Set pieces(If you please), Passing, Teamwork
Centre Mids: Have pretty much everything, but can vary if you want a more defensive or more attacking player
Strikers: Decisions, Finishing, Heading (depending on the striker), Movement (Depending on the striker) Natural Fitness, Strength (depending on the striker).

For the strikers and centre mids, you'd be best off doing one of each, so one more defensive mid, and one more attacking mid, and with the strikers, one pacey striker with lots of movement, and one big strong striker, that should give you decent outcomes if you do it the same for the other team. If you do require help creating the players just drop a PM to one of us and we'll help you out when possible.

Baz

whats the score with these atts? some of them are different to the key att's - GK:

Handling
Reflexes
One on ones
Consistency
Anticipation
Positioning
Decisions
Determination
Agility
Jumping

DL/DR:

Pace
Natural fitness
Acceleration
Stamina
Technique
Teamwork
Tackling
Dribbling
Work rate
Determination

DC:

Strength
Heading
Jumping
Natural fitness
Teamwork
Tackling
Stamina
Marking
Positioning
Determination

DMC:

Teamwork
Stamina
Natural fitness
Passing
Technique
Decisions
Positioning
Marking
Anticipation
Tackling

MC:

Stamina
Natural fitness
Teamwork
Technique
Passing
Decisions
Acceleration
Dribbling
Anticipation
Work rate

ML/MR:

Pace
Natural fitness
Acceleration
Stamina
Technique
Dribbling
Passing
Decisions
Crossing
Movement

AMC:

Stamina
Technique
Passing
Natural fitness
Movement
Teamwork
Decisions
Dribbling
Acceleration
Pace

FC (pacey):

Finishing
Nat. fitness
Stamina
Technique
Movement
Decisions
Acceleration
Pace
Dribbling
Agility

FC (strong):

Finishing
Nat. fitness
Stamina
Technique
Movement
Decisions
Strength
Heading
Jumping
Passing

and then there is the other 15 att's , CA 15
Anticipation
Crossing
Decisions
Dribbling
Finishing
Heading
Long Shots
Marking
Movement
Passing
Penalties
Positioning
Tackling
Throw ins
Vision

are they meant for specific player positions? they seem to be just an overall list for every player?

whereas the 10 key atts are with the name of the position beside each specific att that it needs.

thats 3 sets of different att's as far as i can make out if you include this one,

[using the guide for vital atts and usefull atts per position,Goalkeepers
A breed apart from the rest of the lads, the man between the sticks has his own specific areas of expertise and skill that you should look out for. Handling, reflexes and agility are all attributes reserved for goalies and it's these three skills that are the core of his overall ability. Good positioning, the ability to jump and good strength will also come in handy when your goal is under siege.
Vital Skills: Handling, Reflexes, Agility
Desirable Skills: Positioning, Jumping, Strength

Fullbacks
A hugely demanding role. Today's fullback needs to have the pace and stamina to get forward and the skills to be effective when he gets there. Above all, though, he needs to excel at his defensive duties and have excellent positional awareness in order o keep the opposition's wide players at bay.
Vital Skills: Positioning, Tackling, Marking, Stamina, Jumping, Strength, Heading
Desirable Skills: Passing, Pace, Acceleration, Crossing

Centrebacks
The traditional image is one of a lumbering clogger, hired for his brute strength and his ability to risk various parts of his anatomy in order to protect his goal. This is only part of the story, though, for while you'll find plenty of highly rated centrebacks in the lower divisions, in takes a lot more than brawn to make it as a stopper at the top level.
Vital Skills: Positioning, Jumping, Tackling, Marking, Aggression, Strength, Bravery, Heading
Desirable Skills: Stamina, Anticipation, Determination, Pace, Acceleration

Defensive Midfield
These defensive players represent the engine room of your midfield and the anchormen that hold the side together. Attacking sides may look to play without these players, but lower division teams and those looking to break down the flair and creativity of the opposition will look for these guys to toughen things up in midfield.
Vital Skills: Tackling, Strength, Aggression, Marking, Stamina, Work Rate, Teamwork
Desirable Skills: Determination, Passing, Pace, Acceleration

Attacking Midfield
This is where you'll be looking for creativity. These guys will demand the ball and pull the strings throughout the 90 minutes. They'll need to have the skills to break down the opposition, either through their passing or their own attacking instincts. They are among the most difficult players to find in the game. Treasure them.
Vital Skills: Creativity, Passing, Off The Ball, Technique, Finishing
Desirable Skills: Stamina, Work Rate, Teamwork, Flair, Long Shots, Pace, Acceleration

Wingers
These guys are the mercurial entertainers who are in the side to provide ammunition for the forwards. The supporters will turn up in their droves to watch a winger twist and turn his fullback into the ground. But many teams, particularly at the lower levels, don't have room to support the traditional winger. These days a wide man is expected to toil for his own team as well as torment the opposition, so midfielders who can play on the wing or in the centre are often a good choice.
Vital Skills: Crossing, Creativity, Dribbling, Pace, Acceleration, Balance, Technique, Passing
Desirable Skills: Finishing, Long Shots, Teamwork, Work Rate, Off The Ball

Forwards
Goals win games, there's no denying that; and for these guys banging one in the net is a priority. However, the modern-day forward can bring more to a team than just his finishing ability. Combining a natural goalscorer with a creative forward player can be a deadly cocktail that spells trouble for opposing defences, and goals galore for you. The real life examples are numerous - look at Beardsley and Cole, or Bergkamp and Henry. [dated, or what?]
Vital Skills: Creativity, Finishing, Off The Ball, Dribbling, Passing, Technique, Pace, Acceleration
Desirable Skills: Teamwork, Flair, Balance, Long Shots, Anticipation, Crossing

Strikers
The goal machine. The man who can single-handedly decide the fate of the team. Without this fella banging the ball in the net all that lovely approach play is wasted. You want him in the box sniffing out goals, even if that's his sole contribution to the team effort. If you get a good striker, make sure they are not isolated - make midfielders support him and widemen feed him the ball and play to his strengths. If he has good heading and jumping ratings, modify your style of play to get the ball in high. If he's good on the ground or has good movement and creativity, consider short passes to exploit his pace and finishing skills.
Vital Skills: Finishing, Off The Ball, Jumping, Heading, Anticipation
Desirable Skills: Pace, Acceleration, Strength, Aggression, Long Shots



was thinking last night as well,

what about the players in lower leagues, say the championship and down to conference, how would you go about making these players perform well? all i can see is players with the max att for some abilitys, what about if the plaeyr wasnt as good, how would you go about making him perform but keep him kinda realistic?


cheers

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:10 PM
so many guides as to what makes who a better player http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif
hard to keep track, woudl be good if there was just 1 list for all to note and use http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gif

tests with players from different positions with and without the atts they need to see if they do or don't perfrom better, say tested over 5 holiday seasons?

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:10 PM
looking thru the original games editor, do you even think that they guys went as in depth about the game as we do? i really dont think they did.

Beez

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:10 PM
Everything seems to be going in 1 mix now. CA15 has nothing to do with any of the key atts lists.

Key atts lists, wether it are the ones I posted, the ones Baz posted or what you posted above are all based on personal observations or opinions. I suppose everyone uses somekind of logic or research to make these lists, what works is something everyone should test for themselves. Teammates, opponents, tactics, position, etc all play a role in performances so it`s not all about attributes either.

As for making players perform good without elite attributes, the principle stays the same, just with 15/16/17 as highest(strongest)atts instead of 18/19/20.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:11 PM
These discussions remind me very much of the Pro Cycling Manager database discussions I had on attributes in that game.
They use 50 to 85 scale for things like climbing, time trialling, sprinting, stamina, resistance, recuperation etcetera. And potential from 1 to 8 to define how far they can come. But in that game, you could control the max stats they could attain per potential. (for example, you could define it so that nobody would ever reach the (overpowered) 85 stat in anything). You could even control it per type of rider (climber, time trialist, stage-racer, sprinter, etcetera)

It's a shame CM 01/02 doesn't have this. If we had better control of what sort of player could reach maximum in every attribute, for certain areas of PA....then it would be much more perfect

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:11 PM
If we(updaters)had to set a seperate CA and PA for every single attribute I doubt there would be an update for cm0102 today. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

This game`s simplicity is its success.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:12 PM
Time to bring this back to life. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif


Like stated before I had plans to create more Tsigalko-like players with slightly different CA`s and 2/3/4 strong key CA atts. I have to thank Trip for his contribution in all we found so far in this research and also JohnLocke for his tool to mass-lower PA(CA). I now have taken the SIM Update and mass-lowered the PA(CA) to create a more Tsigalko friendly environment. Hopefully my creations will now be recognised by the AI in the long run.

I will start by creating 22 central defenders that all have a different combination of CA and key atts in 2 divisions; Spain and England. The first 2 are Pique and Terry, who will have the following changes:

CA 63/PA 123, heading/tackling 20, positioning/marking/decisions 11, four 6`s, five 4`s and a 1.


More to follow ...

BD

Thought I`d quote myself so there is at least a chance people will get what the hell I`m on about now. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

So I created 12 DC`s so far. I had to lower the PA to 103 because they were developing into monsters. I might have to lower it some more later on but for now this will do. To give you an idea how these 12 guys look I have put what I consider to be important atts for this position in a schedule, to make it easy to compare:


Name | Acce | Dete | Head | Jump | Mark | NFit | Pace | Posi | Stam | Stre | Tack | Team | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amorebieta | 12 | 13 | 10 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 12 | 20 | 14 | 14 | 10 | 14 |
Carragher | 9 | 16 | 10 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 9 | 10 | 14 | 18 | 20 | 16 |
Escudé | 13 | 14 | 10 | 14 | 20 | 13 | 13 | 10 | 17 | 14 | 20 | 14 |
Ferdinand | 14 | 18 | 20 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 13 | 10 | 14 | 15 | 10 | 16 |
Kompany | 13 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 10 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 10 | 14 |
Mertesacker | 9 | 13 | 10 | 18 | 10 | 15 | 12 | 20 | 13 | 16 | 20 | 17 |
Nano | 11 | 15 | 10 | 14 | 10 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 20 | 13 |
Pepe | 15 | 17 | 20 | 16 | 20 | 18 | 15 | 10 | 16 | 16 | 10 | 14 |
Piqué | 11 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 10 | 16 | 12 | 10 | 17 | 16 | 20 | 16 |
Rami | 13 | 17 | 20 | 16 | 10 | 16 | 12 | 20 | 15 | 16 | 10 | 15 |
Taylor, S. | 11 | 14 | 10 | 14 | 20 | 14 | 13 | 20 | 15 | 13 | 10 | 14 |
Terry | 11 | 20 | 20 | 17 | 10 | 18 | 11 | 10 | 18 | 20 | 20 | 18 |

Please be aware that these are all numbers at gamestart; so this means no training or CA development has happened. If I recall well from earlier tests the 10`s can grow 5 points in the first season.

Only 4(tackling/positioning/marking/heading)of these 12 atts belong to the CA related ones(also known as CA15)and those 4 are the ones I have rotated. So I have 6 different combinations of two 20`s in both Spain and England.

It`s been hard to get the AI to use these guys in some cases but I`m hopeful that in my current test they will all play a reasonable amount of games. I`m curious to see how they perform.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:13 PM
And the winner of round 1 is:


http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6738/nano1.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/nano1.png/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:13 PM
Cheers for the response guys. I also thought it was a pretty amazing performance for a DC. I dont often see central defenders in the top league avr list.

I wanted to post the same schedule of 12 atts after season 1 development but I then discovered Terry had 63 CA/63 PA. I think I remember I saw someone post that when this happens it`s a CMScout reading error, but I wonder if it is since Terry did not develop in the same way as the others in the 3 atts that are 10 in the game start schedule. The rest all had their 10`s develop into 14`s and Terry had 11`s.

I`m running a new test atm where everyone had the correct 103 PA at game start and I will show their att development in a schedule. Also I`m curious to see if Nano can repeat his amazing performance and that it wasnt just a freak.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:15 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Janis89 http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=348332#post348332)
Very interesting this .

Curious on what you discover.
It`s nice to see people are following this. We` re bound to discover some new stuff along the way.

http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by mgwrn http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=348399#post348399)
Really interesting thread. Just out of curiosity how does Mertesackers stats compare with Nano? They both have 20 for tackling and positioning and their other atts are similar.



I didnt have the chance to check Mertesackers individual stats, because I`m running some tests unrelated to this subject now. I have the 2nd testgame saved tho so I was able to compare the atts at gamestart with the end of season 1. These are shown in the schedule below.


Code:

Name | Acce | Dete | Head | Jump | Mark | NatF | Pace | Posi | Stam | Stre | Tack | Team | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amorebieta, Fernando | 12 | 13 | 10 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 12 | 20 | 14 | 14 | 10 | 14 |
Amorebieta, Fernando | 14 | 13 | 14 | 17 | 20 | 17 | 14 | 20 | 17 | 16 | 14 | 15 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carragher, Jamie | 9 | 16 | 10 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 9 | 10 | 14 | 18 | 20 | 16 |
Carragher, Jamie | 10 | 16 | 14 | 18 | 20 | 17 | 10 | 15 | 16 | 19 | 20 | 18 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Escudé, Julien | 13 | 14 | 10 | 14 | 20 | 13 | 13 | 10 | 17 | 14 | 20 | 14 |
Escudé, Julien | 15 | 15 | 14 | 16 | 20 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 19 | 16 | 20 | 16 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferdinand, Rio | 14 | 18 | 20 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 13 | 10 | 14 | 15 | 10 | 16 |
Ferdinand, Rio | 17 | 18 | 20 | 19 | 20 | 19 | 15 | 14 | 17 | 18 | 14 | 18 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kompany, Vincent | 13 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 10 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 10 | 14 |
Kompany, Vincent | 15 | 15 | 20 | 17 | 14 | 18 | 15 | 20 | 18 | 17 | 14 | 16 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mertesacker, Per | 9 | 13 | 9 | 18 | 9 | 15 | 12 | 20 | 13 | 16 | 18 | 17 |
Mertesacker, Per | 10 | 13 | 13 | 19 | 13 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 16 | 17 | 20 | 19 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nano | 11 | 15 | 10 | 14 | 10 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 20 | 13 |
Nano | 13 | 15 | 14 | 16 | 14 | 18 | 15 | 20 | 18 | 17 | 20 | 15 |

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pepe | 15 | 17 | 20 | 16 | 20 | 18 | 15 | 10 | 16 | 16 | 10 | 14 |
Pepe | 17 | 17 | 20 | 18 | 20 | 20 | 17 | 14 | 18 | 18 | 13 | 16 |

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piqué, Gerard | 11 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 10 | 16 | 12 | 10 | 17 | 16 | 20 | 16 |
Piqué, Gerard | 13 | 15 | 20 | 18 | 14 | 18 | 14 | 14 | 19 | 18 | 20 | 18 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rami, Adil | 13 | 17 | 20 | 16 | 10 | 16 | 12 | 20 | 15 | 16 | 10 | 15 |
Rami, Adil | 15 | 17 | 20 | 18 | 14 | 18 | 14 | 20 | 17 | 18 | 14 | 17 |

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taylor, Steven | 11 | 14 | 10 | 14 | 20 | 14 | 13 | 20 | 15 | 13 | 10 | 14 |
Taylor, Steven | 13 | 14 | 14 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 20 | 17 | 15 | 14 | 16 |

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry, John | 11 | 20 | 20 | 17 | 10 | 18 | 11 | 10 | 18 | 20 | 20 | 18 |
Terry, John | 13 | 20 | 20 | 19 | 14 | 20 | 13 | 14 | 18 | 20 | 20 | 20 |

You can see that most of the players have simular development. The CA related 10`s grow to 14`s for allmost all players, except for Carragher whose positioning reached 15. Could be a one off tho. Another strange thing is Mertesacker; where in test 1 he had 10 heading/marking and 20 positioning/tackling in test 2 he has 9/9/20/18. Really weird considering the numbers in the editor are exactly the same, unchanged. The atts unrelated to CA generally show a growth of 2 points except for some like Ferdinand who gained 3 points in some atts. This could be the cause of better coaches.

Next I will make a list of the average ratings/tackles/etc of these 12 players based on test 2. I can already say Nano did even better ! http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:17 PM
Super Nano !!


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7228/nano2e.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/nano2e.png/)


Will post the other 7 later tonight.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:18 PM
So, here`s how the rest of the chaps did:


Code:

Name | App | MoM | Tack | AvR |
--------------------------------------------------
Nano |35 | 5 | 6.0 | 7.83 |
Rami, Adil |32 | 1 | 4.5 | 7.59 |
Ferdinand, Rio |10( 6)| 0 | 2.1 | 7.50 |
Mertesacker, Per |26( 6)| 1 | 3.6 | 7.44 |
Kompany, Vincent |22( 3)| 1 | 3.1 | 7.44 |
Piqué, Gerard |32( 2)| 0 | 3.1 | 7.38 |
Carragher, Jamie |24( 3)| 4 | 3.9 | 7.37 |
Amorebieta, Fernando |35 | 1 | 5.8 | 7.20 |
Taylor, Steven |31 | 0 | 5.0 | 7.16 |
Terry, John |33 | 1 | 3.4 | 7.15 |
Escudé, Julien |27 | 2 | 3.4 | 7.00 |
Pepe |18( 6)| 0 | 2.4 | 7.00 |

Ferdinand had an injury early in the season and hardly got back into the first team ahead of Phil Jones, so his performance is a bit flawed. Now it`s time for me to create some more DC`s, this time with 3 strong CA atts. Their CA will be a bit higher because of that.

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:18 PM
So, last night 4 new star DC`s were born; Dunne(Aston Villa), Moreno(Espanyol), Kaboul(Tottenham) and Demichelis(Malaga). They all have 72 CA, 112 PA and a 20/19/19 combination of key atts. In a new testgame one of the new guys broke the league AVR record:


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5594/kaboul1.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/kaboul1.png/)

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:18 PM
Well, that record didnt last long. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2981/mertesacker1.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/mertesacker1.png/)

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:19 PM
BD, I love seeing this! Also, you shouldn't have included me in the acknowledgments, I hardly told you anything you didn't know already http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Btw, again I stress on the importance of GK's Savegame Editor in player generation. I don't know if you need to use it regularly, since after so much time you have a finely tuned feel for the stuff, but for anyone with less experience it's invaluable.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:19 PM
Interestingly, they all have average anticipation. Is this attribute overrated?

faz44

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:19 PM
Behind the obvious 4(heading/positioning/marking/tackling)anticipation and decisions are the most important CA atts for DC`s, so I`ve made these average on purpose.


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Trip http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=349199#post349199)
BD, I love seeing this! Also, you shouldn't have included me in the acknowledgments, I hardly told you anything you didn't know already http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Btw, again I stress on the importance of GK's Savegame Editor in player generation. I don't know if you need to use it regularly, since after so much time you have a finely tuned feel for the stuff, but for anyone with less experience it's invaluable.
I`m certainly planning on using it in this project. I`m very interested in how the strength of the attributes weigh in these performances and when players will benefit more from 1 particular strong key att in comparison to 2 slightly less strong key atts, same for 2 vs 3/3 vs 4/etc. There is ofcourse a shitload of combinations to think of and I`ll be trying to compare the ones I think are most likely to generate brilliant performances. Speaking of those, I got another record breaker by who else than ...


http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5149/nano3.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/nano3.png/)


That one will be hard to beat I reckon. I now have 24 DC`s in my DB and will share some more stuff later tonight.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:20 PM
A question on anticipation then, BD. It seems to me that anticipation is the only key mental/personality attribute you can't improve through training or discipline. Would you think that if you are looking to buy young defenders, it's a vitally important stat? You can coach the "obvious 4" but you can't coach anticipation.

faz44

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:20 PM
I wouldnt look for anticipation unless I was searching a goalkeeper. It`s not key or vital for any other position imo.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:21 PM
Hmmm... OK. Been trying to construct a backroom staff and coaching schedule that will turn players from zeros to heroes and that starts with the players you sign. This changes my ideas a wee bit.

faz44

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:21 PM
I believe that wether a player becomes a hero has little to do with training and CA/att development. The strength distribution happens when a player is born and doesnt change much after that. For example a 20 that starts as a 20 is much stronger than a 20 that started as a 16.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:22 PM
To illustrate; below you can see the 12 DC`s I have created with 3 strong key CA atts. Each have a combination of the big 4(20-19-19 in editor). The 20 starts as a 20 and therefor is the strongest. The 19`s start as 16 mostly and develop into 20`s, even the 15`s do. So when you look at these players after development you wouldnt know which 20 was strongest. Also I suspect that for example the 20 tackling Nano starts with has a different strength than the 20 tackling Musacchio starts with, because he has less high CA atts.


Name | Acce | Dete | Head | Jump | Mark | NatF | Pace | Posi | Stam | Stre | Tack | Team | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnett, Leon | 13 | 12 | 8 | 16 | 16 | 15 | 13 | 16 | 17 | 14 | 20 | 12 |
Barnett, Leon | 14 | 12 | 11 | 17 | 20 | 16 | 14 | 20 | 18 | 15 | 20 | 14 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Demichelis, Martín | 13 | 18 | 20 | 13 | 15 | 11 | 12 | 8 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 12 |
Demichelis, Martín | 14 | 18 | 20 | 14 | 20 | 12 | 13 | 12 | 14 | 15 | 20 | 14 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Domínguez, Álvaro | 14 | 16 | 8 | 14 | 16 | 12 | 12 | 16 | 12 | 15 | 20 | 13 |
Domínguez, Álvaro | 15 | 16 | 12 | 15 | 20 | 13 | 13 | 20 | 14 | 16 | 20 | 15 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunne, Richard | 9 | 15 | 20 | 17 | 8 | 14 | 11 | 15 | 12 | 15 | 15 | 16 |
Dunne, Richard | 11 | 15 | 20 | 19 | 12 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 14 | 17 | 20 | 18 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferdinand, Anton | 13 | 14 | 16 | 13 | 8 | 15 | 13 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 20 | 14 |
Ferdinand, Anton | 15 | 14 | 20 | 15 | 11 | 17 | 15 | 20 | 18 | 16 | 20 | 15 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flaño, Miguel | 12 | 14 | 15 | 13 | 15 | 14 | 12 | 9 | 14 | 12 | 20 | 12 |
Flaño, Miguel | 13 | 14 | 20 | 14 | 20 | 15 | 13 | 12 | 16 | 13 | 20 | 14 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jordi | 14 | 15 | 20 | 12 | 16 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 13 | 13 | 8 | 14 |
Jordi | 15 | 15 | 20 | 13 | 20 | 15 | 16 | 20 | 16 | 14 | 12 | 16 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kaboul, Younes | 13 | 14 | 20 | 16 | 16 | 12 | 14 | 8 | 14 | 17 | 16 | 12 |
Kaboul, Younes | 15 | 14 | 20 | 18 | 19 | 14 | 16 | 11 | 17 | 19 | 20 | 13 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moreno, Héctor | 12 | 16 | 20 | 11 | 8 | 15 | 11 | 15 | 15 | 13 | 15 | 13 |
Moreno, Héctor | 14 | 16 | 20 | 13 | 12 | 17 | 13 | 19 | 17 | 15 | 18 | 15 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Musacchio, Mateo | 15 | 14 | 16 | 12 | 8 | 14 | 14 | 16 | 12 | 11 | 20 | 11 |
Musacchio, Mateo | 16 | 14 | 20 | 13 | 12 | 15 | 15 | 20 | 14 | 12 | 20 | 13 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shawcross, Ryan | 11 | 15 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 13 | 11 | 15 | 16 | 15 | 8 | 15 |
Shawcross, Ryan | 13 | 15 | 20 | 18 | 20 | 15 | 13 | 20 | 18 | 17 | 12 | 17 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Williams, Ashley | 13 | 16 | 16 | 13 | 16 | 14 | 13 | 8 | 17 | 11 | 20 | 12 |
Williams, Ashley | 15 | 16 | 20 | 15 | 20 | 16 | 15 | 12 | 19 | 13 | 20 | 14 |

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:24 PM
To and Martin are both -2; Tsigalko is -1 and usually retires early (34-35)
In my experience, Ruud rarely retires earlier than 37.

What Anticipation seems to help with is attempted headers. It's mostly a guess, but an educated one, based on a high-Ant striker I made once. Forgot to set his jumping so it ended up a 9 or so, but still he stubbornly tried (and mostly failed) to win headers. So I started looking closely at other guys with high Anticipation and the pattern seemed to repeat. A guy that sometimes illustrates this is one of the super-bargains in 3.68, Paul Tierney, who is a D/MLC with very high Anticipation, Positioning and occasional Jumping (it's 0 in the Editor). Whenever chance favours him with high Jumping he tore up the header match-stats (attempting many, winning almost all).

Btw, on the FM messageboards some crazy researchers have more or less broken down what att does what during the actual match; I tried askingthem if they think the same goes for CM3 atts (most of them have been retained in FM), but got no answer.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:24 PM
Ahh so Tsigalko was -1. None of my players will reach as high CA as those -1/-2 PA guys, but wether that will affect their retirement age remains to be seen. For the first time I holidayed past season 1 to see if any of the older guys would retire and so far 2 did. In season 3 I found the regen of Jamie Carragher at Man Utd:


Spoiler:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/809/carragherregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/carragherregen.png/)



Wonder if he can battle himself into the first team next season.


Also, the regen of Rio Ferdinand was snapped up on a free:


Spoiler:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3648/ferdinandregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/ferdinandregen.png/)





Forest is still in the First Division so before we see this chap at the highest level could take a while.


Last but not least, the tackles/game record was shattered:


Spoiler:
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9022/amorebieta67tackles.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/amorebieta67tackles.png/)



Right now I`m gonna holiday season 4 to see if anyone else retires. Nano, Escude and Dunn are all 34 atm. Cant wait for Nano`s regen tbh. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:25 PM
Because positioning isnt `reset` the regen of Demichelis is now the monster of all monsters:


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9070/demichelisregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/403/demichelisregen.png/)


Oh my, if this guy moves to Spain or England, no record will be safe. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:25 PM
Surely no attributes are reset and a regen takes on exactly the stats of the player he replaces at the point of retirement?

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:26 PM
Nope. Some players (it happens relatively often actually) get a substantial increase in Positioning. I've seen it happen with Creativity, too.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:27 PM
Surely no attributes are reset and a regen takes on exactly the stats of the player he replaces at the point of retirement?

Alan


Nope. Some players (it happens relatively often actually) get a substantial increase in Positioning. I've seen it happen with Creativity, too.

Trip

Tapani told me that there was this issue with positioning not being reset in regeneration. I think this explains the crazy amount of players with high positioning after 5+ seasons. I think it also explains why the goals dry up.

Positioning got the exact same intrinsic value for Demichelis regen as the two 19`s I used, while I only used 10 for that particular attribute. It seems that the numbers used in the editor have no effect at all on the 2nd/3rd/etc generation.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:27 PM
Let me introduce you guys to:


http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/2552/terryregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/804/terryregen.png/)

Terry`s regen.


and ...


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7564/escuderegen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/escuderegen.png/)

Escude`s regen.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:27 PM
Ok I'm trying to create my 2 best friends and myself as super talents in the game 16 years old

But, according to SIM-style (with CA-related stuff), and I don't want to be overpowered in the start. I read the CA15, the CA18/ECA14 tables and fiddled about. Our CA turn out between 90-108 (the winger is demanding and ends up at 108). It's pretty high compared to other players (f.ex huntelaar also has 108CA I think?), but we are super talents. So it would not be bad right? What is a good PA?
I know the gap should not be huge so I made it betwen 130-139 for us three.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:28 PM
I think DC`s, like I created, are pretty exceptional; they rely most on attributes that are not CA related. It`s not strange to use ~20 more for other positions, just because they benefit from more CA related atts.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:28 PM
The regen of Carragher has developed into a world class player quickly. First choice for both Utd and England atm:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/809/carragherregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/carragherregen.png/)


The regen of Demichelis has been spot:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9070/demichelisregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/demichelisregen.png/)


The regen of Dunne has been born:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8003/dunneregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/dunneregen.png/)


I`m curious to see if any of these regens can come close to any of the records that were set earlier. The past seasons nobody has been even close.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:29 PM
Holy shit... Carragher regen looks like a beast http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

What is his CA/PA? Just curious :X

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:29 PM
I'd love to able to re-create Guiseley's ability to produce regens, be great to add to clubs with decent academys to produce good youngsters

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:29 PM
didnt they have negative reputation?

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:29 PM
Something like that. Apparently can't be recreated.

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:29 PM
Something like that. Apparently can't be recreated.

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:30 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by info0 http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=352822#post352822)
Holy shit... Carragher regen looks like a beast http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
What is his CA/PA? Just curious :X

Webber has already reached his PA. He has currently 103 CA and 103 PA like Carragher had.


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Dermotron http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=352825#post352825)
I'd love to able to re-create Guiseley's ability to produce regens, be great to add to clubs with decent academys to produce good youngsters

http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Ruben http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=352871#post352871)
didnt they have negative reputation?


Something must be hardcoded into the game that makes the best regens appear at particular clubs like Guiseley. It happens too much to be a coincidence.


Some new screenies:


Traditionally, Arsenal has snapped up french starlet Escude Junior:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4760/escuderegenatarsenal.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/207/escuderegenatarsenal.png/)


Dunne`s regen is gonna partner Carragher`s at Utd and has played 2 games for Ireland already, one being a 3-0 win over Italy in the World Cup Qualifying - he got a 9 in that match:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2625/dunneregenatutd.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/46/dunneregenatutd.png/)


And finally league avr record holder(8.31)Nano has retired, after playing at non-league side Oviedo till his 38th birthday:

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2893/nanoregen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/nanoregen.png/)


BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:32 PM
Some guys start with a CA that is even lower than what I gave their originals(63 or 72). That gives them even more room to grow. In the current season(7th)we finally have a serious tackles/game record attempt:


http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4466/terryregenrecordattempt.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/terryregenrecordattempt.png/)


The record is still held by Amorebieta - 6.7 tackles/game 32 league games.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:32 PM
Notice how all the regens at Guiseley (and Alfreton) are Irish, Scottish or Welsh... If you load CM Scout you will likely find that the club reputation is ludicrously high.

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:32 PM
Braintree were another. Haven't checked, but had anyone noticed a lack of regens since both of them are in the Conference and thus playable now?

I had a 5 season game with Braintree in the conference and don't think I had a single decent regen

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:33 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

Their rep is 65498, while the normal max is 10000(Barca has that). Crazy stuff. Braintree has only 1074.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:33 PM
Awesome http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Be great to be able to replicate that!

Dermo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:33 PM
Btw BD, you were right about positioning increasing close to retirement:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3216/davidluizu.png

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:34 PM
I knew it !

Do you still have savepoints for these seasons ? It seems to me that as soon as other CA atts go down, positioning starts going up, so it would be interesting to see what the CA did in that graph. Also I`m interested in the age the player in question had in the graph. Top stuff alan. We found something new, again ! http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:34 PM
The player started at 24 (and about 4 months), and I took the details as close as I possibly could to 10th July each year. I don't have the save points as I overwrote but I kept an eye on the CA and it was generally level give or take a few points until the age of 34, then dropped from the 170 region gradually down to 130ish at retirement, increasingly quick as death became closer. He retired at 38.

Significant in my opinion

* a sudden loss of mental and technical values when hitting 32, no change for the best part of two years, and then a gradual drop in all (okay, most) of these attributes until retirement, generally a loss of 3-4 points, positioning being the obvious notable exception.

* No movement at all in physical attributes until age 34. Not surprising as at 24 he should be physically fully developed, and his natural fitness was 17, injury proneness relatively low (can't recall ottomh). Then from 34 onwards a dramatic drop for four years, making the guy an invalid at retirement date.

* Early on the rise in attributes in the first year I would suggest is purely down to training and CA/PA gap closing (he starts with 20 difference). No idea what is going in in year 2 but I can only guess it is just the game rebalancing the player once training skills is maximised. The fluctuation in crossing is not significant, but perhaps hitting 30 and gaining a couple of points in decisions shows the benefit of ageing? That wouldn't explain dropped again later, so maybe I am looking for something that isn't there.

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:34 PM
Cheers for that Alan. This could mean that whatever we do, positioning is gonna explode in the future no matter what. My DC`s sometimes start their career with positioning 8(Demichelis/Kaboul/Williams)or 9(Flano). I didnt see how Demichelis looked just before he retired(I wasnt tracking it yet)but his regen has 20, so that is possibly +12 in total. The `twin` of Demichelis in England is Kaboul, who is 34 in my game atm, but his 8 positioning is now `only` 13. Will track it ofcourse. Flano however, already has 18 positioning in my game atm, and he started with 9. He is 35 yo.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:34 PM
I think that in-game values aren't as good an indicator as intrinsic values. The drop in in-game atts, I think, would've been purely because of the CA drop, which btw doesn't affect intrinsic values in any way. It's even possible for CA to drop and intrinsic values to rise.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:35 PM
Intrinsic value (my term) is the actual strength of an attribute and the reason To Madeira is a beast, for example. It measures in the range of 131-130, passing through 0 on the way.

The weakest intrinsic value for an attribute is 131. From then on it rises up to 255, then flips back to zero and rises to 130. Effectively, 131 is the "0" and 130 is the "255". In my experience, intrinsic value has a much bigger effect on performance than CA-value. CA value is the numbers that rise when CA rises, the "1-to-20" values. The many 20s of van Nistelroy, for example, do ensure very strong performances, but high intrinsic values would make him perform much better, all other things being equal (and given that you don't use an uber-tactic, though even then there is a visible difference).

The only way to see intrinsic value is through GK's Savegame Editor. It's also the only way to actually see what the "initial training" phenomenon does. Depending on the intensity of the training regime, it raises certain attributes in increments of 6 intrinsic points, up to 18. If a player begins with an intrinsic 0 for finishing (a strong value), it will rise to 18 when you've fully trained him.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:35 PM
The ranges of this "intrinsic value" is purely dependant on current ability, as I am sure you are aware http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:35 PM
They're not http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:36 PM
Look at the reality:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6310/attst.png

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:36 PM
What that shows is that indeed a 20 is more powerful for a player with lower CA.
It also shows that for any given CA the "real" value of a visible attribute will fall into a certain range, which is exactly what was denied 40 minutes ago.

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:36 PM
Well, you either would have given in or you would've given even more detailed info than I have. People only stand to gain by the latter. Actually, my first post on intrinsic values from some months ago contains the same kind of table, only for CA=1. I got blank looks. I don't know if you figured this out after I did, but if not, you could've lent a hand in explaining this sooner ;)

Still, I don't see how that knowledge helps unless we have a similar table for each 10 CA gap, for example. Also, GK's Editor is rather more accurate.

Btw, when I said that these ranges aren't CA-dependent, I meant player creation. What a player looks like and performs depends much more on attribute distribution in the Editor than CA/PA.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:37 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Trip http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=353228#post353228)
Well, you either would have given in or you would've given even more detailed info than I have. People only stand to gain by the latter. Actually, my first post on intrinsic values from some months ago contains the same kind of table, only for CA=1. I got blank looks. I don't know if you figured this out after I did, but if not, you could've lent a hand in explaining this sooner http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

I don't recall seeing or at least paying any attention to anything you had previously said on the subject, but it isn't exactly a time-eating exercise t knock together a little table like this


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Trip http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=353228#post353228)
Still, I don't see how that knowledge helps unless we have a similar table for each 10 CA gap, for example. Also, GK's Editor is rather more accurate.

You could start by drawing up a simple line graph in Excel which should give reasonable approximations without having to spent the time carting every conceivable CA value.


http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Trip http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=353228#post353228)
Btw, when I said that these ranges aren't CA-dependent, I meant player creation. What a player looks like and performs depends much more on attribute distribution in the Editor than CA/PA.

Which poses the question, what is the total value of "actual" points for any given CA? It would be a shame to learn, after I don't know how many years, nobody has thought about this.

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:38 PM
I'm actually following this with great interest. I've never looked into player dev. much and since recently (the last post about creating myself and 2 friends in the game) I've followed every bit.

The biggest challenge to me are young players. How to create them best so they develop into world class players with the right attributes in the right areas.... without them being great from the start. I want a 16 year old who's pretty normal to grow out to a world player without already starting out as a world class one. etc...

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:38 PM
But thats just it - this whole thread can be summarised into 1 thing imo; how good a player is happens in the editor. Everything after that is just for the pretty looks. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:38 PM
So what do I enter in the editor when I want to have a 16yo turning into world class later?

http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:39 PM
BD do you use Tapani patch of any sort?

I remember you saying that you don't as that kills players you want to create... http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Something changed in that regard?http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:39 PM
BD do you use Tapani patch of any sort?

I remember you saying that you don't as that kills players you want to create... http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Something changed in that regard?http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

infoo

I still dont use it, mainly because I dont care about any of the changes it makes.



So what do I enter in the editor when I want to have a 16yo turning into world class later?

http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ruben

It`s this `later` that is nearly impossible in cm0102. A player is either good or not. This intrinsic value Trip speaks about(I like to use `attribute strength`)is pretty much there at the start of any players career. During a career attributes can rise anything from 0-12 points in-game as we have seen, but the strength of that attribute hardly changes. In this thread I`m trying to discover what is the best combination of strong key atts for positions, that`s why I have created so much DC`s. So far the 2 records are held by guys that had only 2 strong CA atts. The intrinsic value of these 2 atts are 80. For the DC`s that have 3 strong CA atts their strongest att has less intrinsic value, 72(I believe)but they ofcourse have 2 other slightly less strong CA atts that are 44. The total is both 160, coincidence or not ? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:40 PM
Ok, but I remember that Papadopoulos, Andrielos, Anastasiadis, Doukas, and Skalidis had awesome attributes in their strong ares in the editor. But low CA and -2PA.

So if I give a defender a good attributes in his areas, bad attributes in non-relevant (to his strength) areas, and a low CA and -2PA like the super greeks, would that work?

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:40 PM
I believe you don't put negative values at all in PA. It's certain number.

There was also a discussion about how big the gap should be between CA/PA so player develops nicely (I believe it was between 20-40).

But when you start with low CA and -2 PA and use Tapani patch, there is high probability player won't ever reach full potential... (from 2.17 Tap patch onwards)

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:40 PM
I play without (i use speed adjuster). Still this new info kinda limits what I want to do. They'll become stars too soon. Oh well.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:41 PM
Ok, but I remember that Papadopoulos, Andrielos, Anastasiadis, Doukas, and Skalidis had awesome attributes in their strong ares in the editor. But low CA and -2PA.

So if I give a defender a good attributes in his areas, bad attributes in non-relevant (to his strength) areas, and a low CA and -2PA like the super greeks, would that work?

Ruben

I think those guys are also great with for example 103 PA or 112 PA like I used. For me PA is just important so CA grows, which is needed for the AI to recognise talent. If you want a superstar you can give someone 20`s for all important atts that are not related to CA(like pace/acc/technique/jumping/etc). It`s only relevant to put unneeded CA atts low, because that raises the strength of the CA atts you put high. For example this is how I created Nano:


Code:

Tackling 20
Positioning 20
Heading 11
Marking 11
Decisions 11
Anticipation 6
Passing 6
Crossing 6
Movement 6
Dribbling 4
Long Shots 4
Finishing 4
Penalties 4
Creativity 4
Throw ins 1
Strength 15
Jumping 14
Natural fitness 16
Teamwork 13
Stamina 16
Determination 15

In theory I couldve made the non-CA atts(the bottom 6)all 20. This might make him even better. Outside the 15 mentioned above (CA atts)I dont think any other att is influenced by starting CA. I dont really know if starting CA influences intrinsic values of non-CA atts(Trip, Alan?).

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:42 PM
Yeah I pretty muched grasped that idea. But what CA/PA did you give that Nano.
Did you gave him a CA according to CA15 table and potential a bit room to grow (20-40 like info said). or did you gave him a PA according to the CA15 table with these attributes, and lower CA by 20/40?

Hope you understand what I mean.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:42 PM
Well in BD example the gap is only 9 for example and look how Nano performs.

This is bizarre in some ways...

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:42 PM
Interesting. I did two quick tests.

One with 65 CA -2PA for 3 players, with very good attributes (like 20 tackling, 20 pos for defenders, 20 OTB and 20 finishing strikers) in right areas CA-related, and low in others. And the non-CA related attributes pretty high also. 2 players were pretty good, 1 good. But none awesome
2nd test I used CA table to define CA. and gave PA of +40. And now they develop nicely and are already nice internationals at age 23/24 (started age 18).

I've learned a lot already. But the I still don't get the intrinsic values well. I understand the concept. I just don't know how to work it out well.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:43 PM
You misread something in that case. The guys like Nano, which have 2 strong CA atts(20-20), have 63 CA/103 PA. The guys like Demichelis, who have 3 strong CA atts(20-19-19), have 72 CA/112 PA.

I`m currently in season 12 but somehow I doubt those records(Nano 8.31 league avr/Amorebieta 6.7 tackles/game)are going to get beaten. They arent even getting close.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:43 PM
So a striker with 20 OTB, 20 finishing, and other CA att low, (and non-ca high) would do better than a striker with OTB/FIN/HEA/JUMP at 20, and rest CA low, and other non-related CA high?

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:44 PM
I'm not as good at this as BD. But I did manage to get my DMC friend to get 7.0 tackles/game in 15 appearences in season 2 and 5.4 in 19 games the next season. Getting there http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:44 PM
So a striker with 20 OTB, 20 finishing, and other CA att low, (and non-ca high) would do better than a striker with OTB/FIN/HEA/JUMP at 20, and rest CA low, and other non-related CA high?

Ruben

Ahhh, if only life was as easy as that. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Tbh I dont know, that`s why I`m experimenting with all these different combinations. It does seem that in the case of DC`s, dividing the strength over 2 CA atts works better than dividing it over 3. This doesnt mean it`s the same for each position. It could be that for attackers a combination of 3(say finishing/movement/decisions)works best. For central mids and wingbacks it might even be combinations of 4 or 5 that work best. I plan to find all that out tho.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:44 PM
My DMC(also MC)

Pos 20
Tac 20
Decision 11
Heading 11
Passing 11
Vision 11
Ant 4
Cross 4
Drib 4
Finish 4
Long shots 9
Marking 4
Movement(OTB) 4
Penalties 4

CA 74 PA 104

5 seasons -> 6.1 tackles/game and 7.69 avg, best season... 9.2 tackles/game (30 apps) http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif, but Dutch First division, after that transferred to Feyenoord. Hahaha

My SW/DC

Pos 20
Tackle 20
Marking 11
Heading 11
Passing 11
rest of ca-related all 4

CA 74 PA 104

5 seasons in he has 5.5 tck/game and 7.63 avg (best season 7.86) -> only AI controlled

My striker



Anticipation
4


Crossing
4


Decisions
11


Dribbling
4


Finishing
20


Heading
11


Long shots
11


Marking
4


Movement
20


Passing
4


Penalties
11


Positioning
4


Tackling
4


Vision
4



also CA 74 and PA 104

first season 38 goals out 43 matches and a transfer to Chelsea. But now 4 seasons reserve. Could also be effect of playing in ODBv2 / minimal db (england is not selected). Not sure.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:45 PM
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7446/remy1.png
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7182/remy2.png
Lol check tackles/game. And this was the test with lowest CA/PA.

Only problem with this low CA/PA is, in the setting of the ODBv2 11/12 update at least, it's harder to get in first XI of AI teams and international call ups...
But they perform better than the high ca/pa counterparts i made (although they also performed). Funny.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:45 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/icons/icon1.png
Alan: It's not about the time it would have taken me, it's about the weight of my opinion on its own, which is somewhere between "featherlight" and "non-existent". Since I *have* tried to explain it at length here, I'm not being cheap with my time. And if you haven't seen it or paid any attention, well http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif((

Also, I haven't learned to use Excel, sorry to say http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

As to the third part of your post, it's no wonder, since it seems almost no-one *knew* about intrinsic values until recently, and even if people now know, most don't really care much, from what I've seen. That said, I've tried to do exactly what you suggest, albeit rather unsystematically.

I've learned that a player with all 1s in the editor will have an intrinsic value of 235/236 for all of them, irrespective of CA. I've learned that One-on-ones and Reflexes also influence attribute formation for non-goalies (although I always just set them to 1s, so no real breakthrough here). I've found out that One-on-ones and Throw-ins decrease by a single intrinsic point for every 2.5/3 CA points a player gains during player creation.

I've learned that no intrinsic points are ever lost, only transferred. A current van Nistelroy I observe received a raise of 12 intrinsic points in his Decisions att around the age of 30; these 12 were deducted from other CA-atts' intrinsic points, one from each, so it doesn't really get reflected in the in-game screen, but it is rather telling, mostly of the fact that it's possible there is a fixed number of intrinsic points for each CA. OR that there is a maximum sum of intrinsic points that is achievable by any CA - it's just about fine-tuning and optimization, - and the sum only becomes fixed after game-start. My current method goes as far as seeing that 235/236 as the ground zero for att-development, and deducting/adding the difference for every att below/above 235 to the sum total. Still, I'm not sure how to devise a test that would yield any reliable results. Suggestions?

BD: Non-CA atts don't have intrinsic values. The 1-20 is the only value that you get.

Alan

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:46 PM
@Trip, but that's something the CM3 svgame editor of Graeme already told us. I finally understand that now

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:46 PM
Greame told that GK editor has slight bugs which he couldn't get rid off that's why he said that all GK editors are betas http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif.

What you see in GK is how game actually reads values and how they are stored. You get max values possible in some cells http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif (like >100 in some areas) although in game it will still be 20...

I know what you mean though. Just wrongly named and couldn't for life of mine get what you were on about http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:46 PM
Well, all it took was a single look at the Editor, instead of just reading my blabberings http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif Anyway, I'm glad that some of us at least are on the same page now http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Edit: Also, they do need a name, attribute strength, intrinsic values, "actual" values, whatever. "How the game actually reads values and how they are stored" is the correct description but doesn't quite cut it in the conciseness department http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:47 PM
Still funny we find new revelations 10 years after the game has been released. And so many still playing. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:47 PM
That knowledge can actually help in updating the game if we can come up with a pack of general guidelines for player creation, also it can make it somewhat tougher for the player. I still remember a friendly I decided to play against Chania, Skalidis' team, with him still in it: beat them 4-2, the guy scored a brace with the only 2 shots they managed in the entire game. Now imagine playing againts a team full of similarly styled players.

Not to mention finding extremely cheap, extremely low-CA players that perform like madmen. At CA<20, an att in the range of 10-15 is actually stronger than a van Nistelroy 20. To me, a reliable indicator that a guy has low CA is seeing a 1, a 2, or a 3 somewhere among his CA-atts (a 4 also works, but isn't as reliable). Couple that with, say, a 12 for Off the Ball and a 14 for Finishing, and I know this guy will score no matter the team, division or nation.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:48 PM
But Trip, I did find that AI teams don't like to play low CA players in high teams much. They prefer higher CA(/PA) players, at least in the ODB (odb updates also) settings.
In SIM setting they probably get to play a lot more because all players are styled after CA15 (or was it CA18/ECA14, also a method).

In my tests the 74/104 PA perform like madmen, do get international caps and play for good clubs, but they don't play much.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:48 PM
Yeah, that's the problem with lower CA/PA. It means lower current reputation and a lower chance of playing. Btw, I found out that at PA 158 a player cannot get maximum value (>31 million euro) no matter how well he plays. At 176, he can. So somewhere between these two is the threshold for having maximum value.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:48 PM
What I found out doing some standalone testing was comparing low/high CA/PA players.

low-CA/PA based players perform better in their respectable positions cos they concentrate on what they can do best. Think of it as Germany national team. They work in perfect balance/sync. That's why a team based on low-CA/PA players can perform better than high CA/PA team.

Why the difference is there? It's quite unfortunate to say that AI is bad when it comes to dealing with high CA/PA players http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif. They can be played out of position (which you can test too).

Still they will perform good to great, but not optimal as they will concentrate on doing other stuff too (like droping back to tackle... in strikers case?! or helping to pass the ball etc.)

Too good player will make AI/game engine go into panic mode... (which you can see in holiday tests with van Nistelrooy). Try playing the game on your own and you can get most of van Nistelrooy (with correct tactic getting him to score >130 goals should be possible).

It's quite funny to do such testing... And it's more funny that I learned this from watching my Godlike player http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:49 PM
Although I've had similar observations, I don't really consider players like van Nistelroy "too good" in CM. Just too ... all over the place. It's true that this will make them do stuff that's not customary for their position, like Inzaghi making 7 tackles one game, but only getting 2 shots in. And yes, of course, you can make them perform great with the right tactic, but then again the right tactic has in the last 2 years become "one that rapes the opposition in the ass no matter what your team is". http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:49 PM
Then again, when you give realistic attributes, you should still get at least a few players with 150-170 CA. There are simply very complete players out there.
And Messi in ODBv2 update has almost 200 CA/PA and still performs like a beast

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:49 PM
I didn't say iodine is necessary xD. Even old 4411 crusade would be enough http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

Ruben I believe it's due to tac Barcelona uses on ODBv2 that Messi performs like that... He would be played out of position in 442 formation for example...

In Barca tac he plays in AMC or SC position, so he performs. Of course under human control you can have ANY player and he will perform. As you KNOW what you're doing.

But we're speaking about AI behaviour here and that can be dire. That's why SIM went with CA15 rule. See how these players can perform under AI.

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:50 PM
After my tests I have come to believe that the SIM way of doing it would give more realistic players, but you have to apply it to the entire DB otherwise you get problems like the one i'm facing (one-dimensional, but good players, don't get much playtime).

However, I also remain thinking that the ODB is a lot of fun because of it's unpredictability. So i'll definately keep using both update styles

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:50 PM
Ruben, the "completeness" of a player doesn't depend on how atts look in-game. As Blue Demon keeps saying, they're for cosmetic purposes. In my most recent game I use a Portuguese right winger, Rui Santos, who usually starts with CA in the range of 1-20 (in the Editor his CA is set to 0), and his attribute distribution is such that his top att is dribbling (insanely high), then follow Off the Ball/Creativity/Finishing, and then Crossing. In-game his Dribbling is 20, his second-highest three atts are all 8s and his crossing a 7. You know what? Their intrinsic values are as high as Messi's in the newest ODB update, and it shows. He regularly gets a lot of shots, a lot of crosses in and a lot of passes in general, all of that from the wing. Not to mention runs, but then again his intrinsic dribbling is 90. I'm talking 3.68 Italian Serie A here. The only reason the 7/8 atts look low is because his CA is low. But they're not *actually* low at all. Their high intrinsic values kick in *despite* the low CA.

And yes, of course 200 CA/PA Messi will perform like a beast; his whole team is beastly. But I found out that, to a degree, you can tell if a player has good intrinsic values if you watch him perform in a non-playable league. If there he gets an avg. above 7.50 and good apps/goal/assists ratio in a good league, then he really is a good player.

Also, you could have unpredictability with a lot of updating styles, ODB, SIM or anything in between. One of the main pleasures of CM for me is finding guys like the aforementioned Rui Santos. One could put any number of easter eggs like him in a database http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:50 PM
Yes, the SIM update has worked on randomness though by giving a lot of players 0 in atts, which could create a very low CA player with good atts in right ares which make his intrinsic values as high as Messi in ODB. Like you said.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:51 PM
Yup. What I'm trying to say is that attribute manipulation leading to guys like Rui Santos/To Madeira/Tsigalko/Skalidis does not cater to people who care about how "pretty" a player is. Yes, most people care exactly (and basically only) about that - I'm talking about the majority, which doesn't really frequent this forum, - and we that fiddle with low CA/PA are kinda nutty, but it's a way of making the game interesting and challenging in yet another way.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:51 PM
A lot of interesting stuff to read there. This was what I was hoping for when I started this.

I mean even before I ever met Trip and he showed me GK Editor/intrinsic values, I used a simular thought process when creating players. To use the above ~20 CA player as an example, the way I see that is; What you do when you assign a CA imo is telling the game what is an average CA attribute for that particular player. A CA around 20 means a 6 is average, so anything above that (7,8) can already be seen as good. For a player that has ~70 CA that same 8 is just an average attribute. For a player with ~150 CA it`s normal to have a 13, that can be seen as `average`. So when I want a strong attribute what I do and have allways done is try to put that 20/19/18 or even 17/16/15 above the average that comes with the CA as much as possible. My theory is that the `strength points` are divided among all atts that are above that average, so it doesnt work if you use too much atts that are in that 15-20 range.

Something else, what happened to decisions at the age of 30, looks a lot like what happens to positioning at the age 34+. I stumbled upon this last night:


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7357/intrinsicvalue105.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/intrinsicvalue105.png/)


Right before this point the intrinsic value was much lower, and after like 3 months it went down again. It`s like they get a boost, maybe on their birthdays ? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:52 PM
I believe there is something like in FM in CM called revaluation of player attributes. Maybe that's what happening, but that should happen 2 times in season (in mid/end).

Nice to see this happening though http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif.

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:52 PM
BD, did any of the other intrinsic atts become lower after that boost, or was it independent of them?

Info, it's only good if it doesn't screw with the balance of the game. Such a boost in Positioning is just ludicrous http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:52 PM
Sadly, it's how the game was created Trip. You must not forget it's 10 years old and no-one could have predicted that there will be updates made for it to this day.

And yes, the game has funny coding here and there, so really not surprising to see some funny glitches or attributes being distributed as they are... http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif (even if Tapani tried to fix it with his patches, he have not succeeded I believe).

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:53 PM
If only there was a way to round up and shoot all the ageing guys the day before their 34th birthdays...

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:53 PM
I did not look close at the other values Trip, but since all my 24 DC`s(both 1st and 2nd generation)are fighting a lost cause atm chasing after records they`ll never beat, I`m gonna stop my game and in a next long game I`ll track the attributes more closely. Before that I`m going to swap some players around to see if it was Nano and Amorebieta that were so good, or the combination of them and their club. Gonna swap them randomly so we get some nice combo`s.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:53 PM
Good idea http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Btw, I'm finding out that a combo of lowest atts in the 6-8 range is much better than a combo of lower numbers. Just created a guy with two 99s at CA=1 O.O

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:54 PM
I dont quite follow that ..

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:54 PM
Instead of giving the two lowest kinds of atts values like 1-5, I give them 6-8, and with each increase, they actually improve other atts too. I don't know if it works with 9-onwards, but it doea with a combo of the six lowest (excluding Throw-ins, which is 1) being 7s, and the next two lowest being 8s.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:54 PM
Ahhh I see what you mean now. I stick to the SIM rule so I cant use `high` lowest numbers like that without having to raise CA.


I have some transfer news:


Barca signs Jordi
Sevilla signs Carragher
Chelsea signs Pepe
Tottenham signs Shawcross
Swansea signs Dunne
Valencia signs Williams
Bilbao signs Pique
A.Madrid signs Miguel Flano
QPR signs Nano
Liverpool signs Terry
Rayo signs Moreno
Man Utd signs Musacchio
Arsenal signs Amorebieta
Stoke signs Demichelis
Malaga signs Kompany
Aston Villa signs Taylor
Levante signs Mertesacker
Villareal signs Dominguez
City signs Escude
Newcastle signs Rio Ferdinand
Espanyol signs Barnett
Norwich signs Rami
Osasuna signs Anton Ferdinand
Real signs Kaboul


Gonna run a game now. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:55 PM
Well, I have done some shit test with super-over-powered-over-limits-of-game Nicky Butt (CA/PA ridiculously high, way above 200)

What can I say, it defo makes your DMC useless. He just... Is not doing DMC work anymore! (don't look at goals/dribbles, but tackles are most important for DM and I would be happy if opposite happened ie dribbles 0.8 and tackles in 30s. Never happened.)

Check the screenshot:

http://i40.tinypic.com/zy661s.jpg

That's why I am even more for low CA/PA... Ruben DMC was the best DM I ever saw in CM. He got a knack for it... Maybe he should join SIM team? BD? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yes, you may find SUCH test pointless, but I wanted to see how this shit works really. Only way to do it this is... Cheat. You may be against it, but it makes for valuable data too.

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:56 PM
Info0: Of course tests like yours are valuable. "Laboratory conditions" like the ones you created are just as important as "field tests" like those of BD http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD, I'm just throwing it out there; the high lowest atts can easily be implemented with the CA15 style. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:56 PM
AI controlled DMC attaining 10.6 tackles per game
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5538/remydmc.png
CA/PA 35/75 http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Like info said, I get the feeling of how to create super defenders, dmc, amc. I only struggle with strikers. Somehow at start of game OTB drops to 14 and it doesn't get up to 20 anymore. I did something wrong in either CA calculation or forgot to do something else. But i recreated my striker 3 times and can't come up with the same one I had last night. Bleh!

I do have a knack for these things. But I always liked messing aroudn with databases. Not only CM. But I'm an expert in Cycling Manager database since the 1st game came out in.. 2001 http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif Actually there are a lot of similarities between cycling manager database problems or different ways of achieving something, and CM 01/02 (or FM).
Even in Cycling Manager you have different ways of thought. The original game has potential 1 (bad) to 8, and some updaters only use up till 7 or 6, because they feel 8 is overpowered (although you can control an 8), and the 'attributes' in Cycling Manager go from 50 to 85 and also have to do with potential ofcourse. Some change it to a smaller scale like 60-80, others don't like this thought and stretch out the scale more. Anyway, like I said, very similar problems, challenges and different ways to achieve a certain goal.

I always like these thoughts about how to evolve a game, change even the gameplay and such.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:56 PM
Ruben, I don't really follow SIM's CA guidelines, although they are effective, as BD's players prove. The last striker I made (in Man Utd 3.68) had CA=1 and two starting 99 for dribbling and finishing, also 3 10s for movement, decisions and heading, and a 0 for long shots. His last season he got 9.77 avg. rating in the Premier League with Info0's Detroy All tactic.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:57 PM
Yeah but the CA guidelines are a bit easier to follow than the intrinsic values. I find it very challenging to get him to 99 dribbling and finishing with 1 CA. although I do believe the striker with 15 CA I created was the biggest beast. I did a test afterwards with v high CA/PA and destroyed that player. Now I can't find him back. Should've made a not http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:57 PM
IMO, one really doesn't need CA higher than 130 to make a world-class player (although one can have it with a higher CA too), and that's the very uppermost limit I'd go to.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:57 PM
You should try your DMC in one of the 2 top leagues Ruben. IF you can get the AI to use him ofcourse, maybe a midtable team ?

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:58 PM
Well, as a rule of thumb atm I can separate how players fall into categories and how they perform on High CA/PA.

For defenders/DMs it seems lower values are key for their fucking amazing performances. Ruben case proves it. My testing also proved that.

For attacking midfielders higher values are of course acceptable. Those for me are the highest risk players to create. They need to be balanced in attack/defense. I like Veron/Gerrard on 3.9.68. Never fail to amaze under human control.

Strikers, of course, the higher the CA/PA the better they can perform, but it's hard to do for AI controled teams. As I stated above, high CA/PA players under AI can be played in worthless positions. This is killing me personally.

I know my view is simple, but it seems to work. As for high CA/PA I didn't mean 170+. No. It can only be higher by 10 points then lowest rated player in team. You should clearly see benefit here. This is what we wanted... But... As I said, it's hard to prove when whole DB wasn't converted like that http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif.

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:58 PM
You should try your DMC in one of the 2 top leagues Ruben. IF you can get the AI to use him ofcourse, maybe a midtable team ?

BD



Ah but that will be very hard. AZ/Heerenveen/Twente seems about their max. I don't think they get playtime at an EPL side. But I will try with an english nationality. Will be on my next attempt list.

Maybe if I edit their REP I can force them to use them in an EPL side and we'll see what happens.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:59 PM
Well, as far as I can see, stikers don't need to have high CA to be awesome too. But even average intrinsic values + high CA = very good performances, especially from forwards, who seem to always be a team's best performing players. Btw, dribbling + creativity for attacking midfielders is a killer combination.

The thing is, Creativity is a very volatile att. To have a player consistently having 70+ passes/game (which almost always guarantees a high match avg.), you need Cre>50 and CA<120, from what I've found out.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:59 PM
This thread is an incredible read.

Jesus

Patinoz
01-07-12, 04:59 PM
Well, my CA=1 forward got 9.33 avg. for 6 seasons in Man Utd before he got transferred to Dortmund, so I'd consider him a success http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Okay, how about we start sharing experience about what works and what doesn't in player creation?

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:00 PM
I believe Patinoz once said that my uber striker didn't perform under AI control and I agreeded to that. He certainly did perform bad for his Godlike stats...

But check this:

http://i40.tinypic.com/59zjap.jpg

This is Butt in Nottm Forest. They grabbed him from MU on free (boo). Quite the opposite happened http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif That guy does not get tackles at all, so he just relies on ball control -> go forward -> score. Nothing else as I can see from dribble stats.

I still think low CA/PA team could bring my one such player down. Why? Because they perform better in areas they MUST perform best. There is no stray from position and do shit.

I guess, I am going back to test now with 1/1 guy http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:00 PM
DMC is definately less spectaculair in the Premier League.
Only 5.5 tackles per game in most seasons so far, but he still has his best years to come.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:01 PM
5.5 tackles is definitely a kick-ass achievement, esp. for a DMC. Most of my best tackles/game i've managed with my custom-made 3-5-2 are about the same.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:01 PM
Nano moved to the EPL but is still the King, even at QPR. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1880/nanov1.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/nanov1.png/)


QPR stayed up and ended 15th.


Mertesacker, who is an exact copy of Nano in CA atts, moved the other way and is owning La Liga. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4374/mertesackerv1.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/mertesackerv1.png/)

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:01 PM
So then, positioning + tackling, first tier, + marking and decisions, second tier. That seems the best possible distribution.

Trip

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:02 PM
That's what have been known for quite some time Trip http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

I would also like to stress that Acceleration and Agression are taken lightly by some people. Agression is interesting case, as agressive players, as you expect may get more yellows, but are diving into tackles more often...

Can someone else confirm this with checking high agression vs low agression? Leaving other stats the same both tests? http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:02 PM
high aggression seemed to work well. Wijnands also had high dirtiness btw (15!!)

Some better news. Now a season with 6.8 tck/game for EPL Wijnands DMC http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:03 PM
A question Ruben; how on earth are you forcing the AI to use a player with such low CA in ODB style data ?


Some news from my current game. Already season 4 now but finally some serious record attempts:


http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6802/recordattempts831.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/recordattempts831.png/)

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9006/mertesackerv5.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/mertesackerv5.png/)


It will be interesting to see if they can keep it up. Levante is currently top of La Liga too. http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:03 PM
@BD I gave Wijnands a HR/CR/WR of 150

Which is also appearent in some other tests I did now btw. Even a 15CA/55PA player can grow out to an international if his starting CR/HR/WR is high enough.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:03 PM
So you arent using an Assistant Manager to use him ? I`ve had players with higher CA straight transfer listed by the AI with 200/200/200 rep on SIM data. I dont get it.

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:03 PM
Nop... didn't do any of that. He was playing for Bolton in the save

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:07 PM
Team full of 1CA/21PA guys (in ODBv2 11/12 setting!!!)

Season 1

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3964/rubeny.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/rubeny.png/)

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4996/leaguehistoryjpg.png

FA Cup final
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9674/facupz.png

Haha... and according to CM Scout none of them progressed past 1 CA yet. (they have 21PA remember). Go team 1CA!

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:13 PM
Well we won everything up to Premier League. 4x UEFA Cup, 3x European Super Cup, 1x World Ch for clubs, 2x FA Cup (2x out due to superkeeper/red cards freak matches), 3x League Cup, and probably every other trophy we entered.. (Charity shield, fa trophy, vans trophy etc).

And at first I used a powerful tactic, but from division 2 on I used UEFA striker, a tactic that tested just over 30 points in OTL and is sucky. Probably a reason I sometimes lose matches, although superkeepers always happen. But we dominated EVERY match...

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:14 PM
Many players getting listed as 'Wanted'?

Dermotron

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:14 PM
Yes. Especially since season 2. I got up to the point were I would get offers every day.
In the end I all gave them a value of €20 million so the teams would bugger off. Occasionaly a player would get unhappy but due to their high loyalty etc stats they'd still renew contract.

Ruben

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:15 PM
http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif Incredible.

Time for an update;

I`ve been running loads of testgames with my 24 created DC`s at their new clubs waiting for someone to break the records, but since nobody did the records still stand. I`ve created 8 new DC`s with 57 CA/97 PA and 1 strong CA att, curious to see if these guys can do any damage. I`ve done a teamswap for all 32 players again and you can see how it turned out here:

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:15 PM
So the time for attackers has come. I will ofcourse keep tracking the performances of my DC`s but I will focus on my 12 attackers now. The lucky few have just finished 9 seasons and here`s a few records:


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7880/messi27goals442.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/messi27goals442.png/)

27 goals. For a 4-4-2 this isnt bad imo, especially because he has only 1 strong attribute which is dribbling. Must say the attackers that partner him steal a lot of goals. I might try 4-5-1 at one point.


http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7749/dzeko827442.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/dzeko827442.png/)

The one you would expect to score the most(strong finishing)got the highest avr so far.


And, when Liverpool got a new manager that played 4-5-1, this led to 2 amazing performances by Suarez. I havent seen such high dribbling before tbh.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4869/suarez81dribbles451.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/suarez81dribbles451.png/)

8.1 http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5517/suarez13mom451.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/suarez13mom451.png/)

13 MoM

BD

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:16 PM
Similar stuff to Patinoz (player) in wato20 story http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Was wondering how the feck he pulled that off http://champman0102.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif.

infoo

Patinoz
01-07-12, 05:16 PM
You set these as SC to ensure that the AI Plays them as forwards, presumably?

KDS