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faz44
27-09-12, 05:46 AM
To save the topic being merged, I'll start here. For a while now, my holy grail has been discovering the key to coachability. I enjoy playing in countries like Denmark and recently made a patch stripping much of the TV and prize money away from England. Using CMScout with all the fields turned on, I selected some candidates to sign to my Brighton team. When we discussed this on the previous board, some felt that the key to finding a coachable player was a mixture of determination and professionalism. Since then, I've signed such players and put them into my training program using some of the principles the Eejit put forward in his excellent guide to training.

Now, I took a game year's worth of data, from December 2001-December 2002 and found completely inconsistent results. I took the total improvement data (the sum of the differences made to each coachable attribute) and plotted it against all of the different attributes. Unfortunately, the only reasonable correlation is the younger a player is, the more likely he is to greatly improve. So I ask again, has anybody seen any consistent evidence that suggests certain attributes can denote coachability.

Trip
27-09-12, 08:21 AM
I haven't, but I still consider it a topic worthy of looking into.
I know that low professionalism makes them skip and/or half-ass training sometimes and you can raise it by warning them of unprofessional behaviour. I know that a warning for poor performance in a match may result in better workrate/determination so I'd say these two matter in matches, not so much in training. Ambition represents the player's desire to move to better clubs (the "thinks the club is a stepping stone in his career" text and such), Loyalty represents whether a guy is likely to go club-hopping as soon as someone offers him a contract; but the others' effects are a bit fuzzy to me as well.

Edit: Also, I'm not entirely sure if the "All "Coaching" atts adding up to 50" rule works as Eejit says, since there are 5 staff atts - Coaching Outfield/Goalies, Judging Ability/Potential and Tactics, - that have intrinsic values. A Coaching Outfield = 10 will be better on a 10 CA coach than a 19 will be on a 190 CA coach.

faz44
27-09-12, 05:47 PM
To be honest, this really started to bug me and the whole thing should probably be called "What's wrong with Bobby Zamora?". In my game, Zamora is Brighton's starting striker. He's 20, his professionalism is 18, his determination is 11. I thought he'd somewhat improve but his net improvement across a year of getting games is 4. Meanwhile, his backup, 17 year old Nigerian Joseph Cole (Determination 14, professionalism 9), has improved by 55 points.

I've used Pearson's for linear regression and Spearman's Rank for rank correlation and it's fairly clear that age is a big deciding factor. Generally, it's the younger the better. Determination has also emerged as a reasonable predictor of success but other than that, no other attribute seems to have any bearing. There's a large random factor but all you can really say is if a player is young and determined, he'll probably improved.

Trip
28-09-12, 10:49 AM
I'm not sure if you can say even that much.
In my games I often sign old regens (23-27 starting age, usually on a free transfer) who improve enormously (60+ CA in two seasons) even though their determination is in the 8-13 range. Have you checked the initial difference between Zamora's PA and CA, and Cole's, respectively? If the formers CA and PA were almost the same at gamestart, the CA WILL drop, therefore making CA-atts drop as well. I mean that his improvement in terms of intrinsic attributes may be hidden by that lowered CA.

faz44
28-09-12, 02:11 PM
Zamora was CA120-PA130, which has dropped to 115-130 but bounced back to 117-130. Cole was 48-129 and is now 84-129. However, when I did regression on ability difference against improvement, the correlation was fairly weak. I think this is a pretty random section of CM because training was more greatly developed in later games.

Trip
29-09-12, 08:18 AM
Yeah, I'd say so.

One of the pretty maddening aspects of this game, in terms of poor game design decisions, is leaving so much stuff hidden from the player. I don't mean the hidden atts necessarily since they're just parameters, but so many of the game mechanics arising from them are invisible that you're just flying blind 90% of the time. And it's not like the verbal cues help that much - like getting a coach report on some guy and learning that he can handle pressure and is consistent. Cool, we've learned that his pressure and consistency atts are over 15. What we've not managed to establish, in almost 15 years, is what handling pressure and consistency even mean in game terms, ffs.

Anyway, yeah... What I think it will take is a good programmer ransacking the code, at least to find the match engine formulas to see how each of the situations in the events.cgf file is resolved mathematically and how the different atts are actually plugged in them. But I'd say that would be a bitch of a job and I don't think anyone is interested or knowledgeable enough to do it. Rant over :)

BeezerCeltic1967
29-09-12, 10:19 AM
nice discussion lads :ok:

troza
22-11-14, 04:11 PM
Hi there.

I just want to make a question: what's the impact of the coaches' and assistant coach's (if those are the english names) reputation on the game?

I'm asking this cause I have at least 3 very good coaches in ratings but with a low reputation... And I want to get rid of one of them but I wanted to know if there is some impact.

info0
22-11-14, 04:48 PM
It's only visual. Nothing more than that. It doesn't have any impact. Low reputation but high stats vs high reputation but miserable stats (high reputation might be attained: because he was great player, before becoming coach etc.).

The answer should be obvious.

troza
23-11-14, 12:31 PM
That's what I choose but I'm having troubles with just 2 guys with good rep with 3 with low reputation... even though they are pretty good...

king_emile_18
18-10-16, 06:03 PM
I'm reading people are saying Coaching Outfield Players, Coaching Goalkeepers, and maybe Working with Youngsters are the only Coach stats you should worry about.

Makes sense, but what about Judging Potential and Judging Ability? Do you find those stats useful for Player reports?

I personally don't use an editor when I play to look up player potential. I use the Coach Reports to see if I should hold onto fringe players a bit longer or let them go, or whether or not to sign youngsters.

Does anybody play the same way and find the judging players stats useful for Coaches? Do you find the reports useful?

To me it seems like a Coach with high judging stats is more likely to say something negative about a player, than a Coach with low judging stats.

AMC
18-10-16, 06:12 PM
I always considered them more a scouting stat than coaching. As you said to begin with I've only ever looked at the two coaching stats when hiring coaches.

Fods
19-10-16, 01:52 AM
Yep judging ability and judging potential are a scouting attribute. Download the game guide it's posted here somewhere

king_emile_18
19-10-16, 02:56 AM
So they do nothing to improve the coach reports?

Fods
19-10-16, 03:26 AM
So they do nothing to improve the coach reports?

I have got an idea - MIGHT BE A BIT CRAZY THOUGH...

1) create two players, one with PA200 and one with PA1

2) Create four coaches, one with Judging Player Ability 1, one Judging Player Ability 20, one Judging Player potential 1 & Judging Player Potential 20

3) Request coach reports on the two players and let us know what the coaches say :ok:

king_emile_18
19-10-16, 06:03 AM
For the player with 200 potential:

Coach with 1 Ability 1 Potential - Player should be transfer listed
Coach with 20 Ability 1 Potential - All the attributes to become a good player
Coach with 1 Ability 20 Potential - Player has immense quality and fantastic ability
Coach with 20 Ability 20 Potential - Player has immense quality and fantastic ability

Fods
19-10-16, 06:19 AM
Job Done

Kingsley
19-10-16, 09:20 AM
I would not believe one word that any scout or coach tells me on a players current or potential ability. They have only 2 purposes

1. Show the blanked attributes so that I can judge them for my self
2. Tell me if there is an attribute I should know about. (Takes a good penalty or lacks professionalism)

I don't think that judging ability and judging potential has any influence on this, so my scouts are always the cheapest that I can get and bugger any attributes

Fods
19-10-16, 10:03 AM
I would not believe one word that any scout or coach tells me on a players current or potential ability. They have only 2 purposes

1. Show the blanked attributes so that I can judge them for my self
2. Tell me if there is an attribute I should know about. (Takes a good penalty or lacks professionalism)

I don't think that judging ability and judging potential has any influence on this, so my scouts are always the cheapest that I can get and bugger any attributes

this theory has been proven wrong in the post above!

Kingsley
19-10-16, 11:03 AM
this theory has been proven wrong in the post above!

And I still won't believe them. Lying bastards the lot of them :)

Fods
19-10-16, 11:43 AM
I was always of the same opinion... maybe still ignore the scouts but take note of the coaches :)

leewilson1979
18-04-17, 10:34 AM
does everyone always use 5 coaches and an assistant manager? looking to save money on wages

AJ
18-04-17, 11:18 AM
I take very proper care to have a good complementary staff. I prefer to sign qsenior players as coaches whilst still in their playing days.

I mostly employ three scouts. One for the next opponent, one who is a very good scout and one who is horrible. Just to get some different opinions.

hodgy
18-04-17, 12:18 PM
Just five coaches for me. Assistant Manager is basically just a more expensive coach in my eyes.

CMCZ
18-04-17, 12:35 PM
one who is a very good scout and one who is horrible. Just to get some different opinions.

:lol:

Kingsley
18-04-17, 12:44 PM
Always have 3 physios as I believe that reduces the amount of injuries in training.
Always have 5 coaches and an AM to maximise the amount of training being given. I never pay a transfer fee as there are always free options, and look to take the ones with the lowest wages.
I tend to have more scouts at smaller clubs. Big clubs tend to recruit international players and their attributes can already be seen. Small clubs need more scouts to disclosed the blanked attributes. Again, never pay a transfer fee and get the cheapest available with the best attributes.