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Thread: March 2019 Data Update Feedback

  1. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by rapski83 View Post
    # GFray
    Hi. I've got the same. Tried to play Juve in Serie A and I noticed that it is hard to win with weak teams like Cagliari, Bologna (many draws). I will mention that I use some "killer" tactics and as if they don't work. Is the problem the changes to the default tactics that were changed in March 2019 Data Update?
    Seems realistic imo. How often do Cagliari and Bologna defeat Juventus irl?

    https://fussball.wettpoint.com/en/h2h/1049-725.html

    https://fussball.wettpoint.com/en/h2h/720-725.html

  2. #227

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    Difference is its happening when you have decent players. The overload 4-3-3 tactic with direct passing you have given the AI is impossible to stop with a realistic tactic. You end up having to play central tactics or WIbWob. Even poor teams that play it are scoring freely and before anyone says it must be bad tactics for my defence. I generally have the best defensive records on the multi player live streams. Most people understand the match engine can be manipulated to make it easy to win, whether it be from unrealistic WIbWobbing, centralised tactics or overloading the box with direct passing and long ball and they choose not to play them because its not realistic and too easy. The tactic you've given the AI is making it so you cannot play without an unrealistic tactic. Teams that play direct or long ball IRL are lesser teams with 1 or 2 up top and certainly don't overload the box. Yes some managers will play all forms or passing (mixed) but they don't just lump it all the time. You've given Guardiola and all top managers direct to make the tactic more effective and to apparently share out the goals for the front three, but in doing so you made the game unrealistic and not fun. IMO and many I speak to, I wish you would just put in realistic tactics and stats and let the chips fall where they fall. If you want to create such OP unrealistic tactics and wibwobbed AI it should be done in a different tactics pack that people can download separately. Then I think more people would go back to playing the update. As from the feedback on the Facebook group seems to be people try this update and just go straight back to the ODB.

    There doesn't seem to be enough gems at lesser teams. Most decent youngsters seem to at top sides and either on a loan or future transfer. Could you please get rid of these reserve teams you've created that have a tonne of transfers arranged over many seasons. This is frustrating, you have to wait for years in some cases to have a chance to buy the player. I know there is limited space in squads, but pick the best ones and put them in the actual reserve teams and put the others on free transfers like CM used too (Kieran Richardson I think is a case in point form one of the old databases). I see a lot of people going into the editor and making changes themselves more than ever at the moment.

    People love this game due to the ODB and I think the play-ability and fun of the game these days is very different to that and I believe needs to be moved back towards that. Realistic tactics (as possible) and cheeky gems to keep it fun.

    This is just feedback so please don't take it as a personal attack.
    Last edited by Kope22; 01-09-19 at 01:32 PM.

  3. #228

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    This is spot on. That 433 tactic is far too over powered and far too common...feels like most AI teams use it. As above, the only way to combat it is using centralised/ wibwob tactics which many of us don't like using. I've not played odb in years but have found myself trying it out recently and enjoying the experience again...I'm all for challenging AI but just feels like this 433 tactic is a step too far and personally think it needs removing altogether. Cheers

  4. #229

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    I see your point, but not sure where to find your answers, but I would try to answer or explain a bit.

    First of all; the smarter guys (so not me ) are working at the formations, especially the 4-3-3 to keep this in line with the other formations and not 'overpower' it. So we hope to find a solution for this.
    Second: Managers arent given a high 'directness' to make the tactics more 'effective' they are set the way as the manager plays his in team irl.
    Third: About the unrealistic stats; like said before many times please let us know, what you would like to see changed. Which manager or which player has unrealistic stats? Which ones needs to be lowered or upped? Now it's too vague to give you satisfied solutions you want I think. You and some others play this game so often and can give some good feedback, but it needs to be far more specific and you can use this topic and the boards for this! Imo this is the only true solutions to solve frustations and problems. Help us to look for solutions instead of just pointing out the problems. (also here; no personal attack, just trying to find the help we need.)
    Fourth: Some choices are hard to made in relation to the difficulty of the game. As most of nowadays players are experienced, we try go keep the game fresh and try to build new challenges. Some guys think the game is too hard, some guys think the game is too easy. Overall we prefer to keep the game realistic as we think most people like it this way. Especially as there are many tools like wibwobbing to help players who think the game is too hard.
    Fifth: We used to give future transfer to all reserve players, but have changed this to given only 5-10 players future transfers to their club. Most of them are the biggest talents in the club and the ones we expect to make it to the main team. Nowadays it's impossible to delete the reserve teams. Clubs, especially in the top of Portugal have way to many players and many of these players play in a premier league abroad. There is a max of 50 players in a squad so it's impossible to add al these players to the main club and we like to keep the squads to 47/48 players so there is some room for transfers in. But certainly this is a point we can further look into.
    Sixth: Unfortunately we see in football lately more and more of the talents get bought very soon and therefore end up in the youth squads of the big clubs. Sad to say, but if a young player at 20's is still at a lesser team, he is probably not a gem. Ofcourse there are exceptions, but these are very hard to 'track'. (Also here if you think there are talents at lesser clubs, please let us know, so we can add them.) Yet, our PA -2 players are over more as 30 different competitions and from 53 different countries. I have done a HR review lately, also for the 'smaller countries' and tried to create some of these 'cheeky gems' but not that much, as once again, it's not realistic. Just look at teams as Chad, Jordan and Nepal to see how many internationals have made it. Also; the gems are bought by the big clubs very soon. Competitions like 1. HNL, Jupiler League, Eredivisie and Superligean lose most of their top 10/15 players every season again to (especially) England and the big clubs there do the same thing to the smaller teams in their competition. This season Ajax bought Kik Pierie (who used to be a CM-gem I think) to only play him in their reserve squad. It's nowadays football..

    Thanks for the feedback and hope to see more specific points in the boards

  5. #230

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    Thanks for the response CMCZ,

    Yeah I know its a tough job for you guys. I think the tactics/play-ability is the biggest point. I get that if people are playing Wibwobbed or central tactics the game is going to be to easy, but there are people that play this way so it is easy and fun and don't have to think when they get in from work. The other thing to be aware is that if people have to play wibbwobbed, then we've found in multi player games, games against other human players are boring and end 1-0 or at least low scoring and not fun. But basically I think the tactics play-ability shouldn't be made to OP and should be made fun for the most people and if people want a challenge there are harder AI tactics packs they can compete against. A lot of people still ask what WibWob is on the group and they need to be catered for as well if the game going to open to a wider range of players. I think keeping lesser team's with defensive shapes with direct and tops sides with attacking shapes short or mixed max well re balance this. If a team has a defensive shape they don't need necessarily defensive mentality also for example. This keeps the balance of teams IMO

    When I mentioned that stats need to be updated to be realistic, I didn't mean that there is anything necessarily wrong with this on the update, I just meant that that is something you will continually need to do with any new update.

    Agreed, top teams do take a lot of top youngsters early and loan them out. But there needs to be others added with some nice stats to make it fun. i mean I didn't know about Daniel James before he was at Man Utd and he looks like a really decent youngster and that doesn't just happen in one summer. I guess what im saying is, if someone or yourselves hear of a decent youngster in the lower leagues, don't be afraid to buff them a bit (within reason). even if they turn out crap it will be fun if there where some players to pick up from the lower leagues that weren't all terrible. ODB was often wrong on there predictions with young talent. But it is still the most played database.

    Regarding top talents with future transfers to their parent club, again I see you are trying to accommodate all players, but I think its better if they are at heir parent club from the start and if they aren't getting games they can be bid on. I know this means releasing players on a free to make space, but they are going to be the lesser ones its not going to be that big a deal. You could put favourite team as the one they should have started at so that if you load up as that team you have a better chance of signing them if you really wanted them back. These freebies could be the little random players that re balance the lack if cheeky gems from the last update. They probably won't be good enough for top teams but enough for smaller clubs to sign up to do a job. Just a thought.
    Last edited by Kope22; 01-09-19 at 03:28 PM.

  6. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kope22 View Post

    Agreed, top teams do take a lot of top youngsters early and loan them out. But there needs to be others added with some nice stats to make it fun. i mean I didn't know about Daniel James before he was at Man Utd and he looks like a really decent youngster and that doesn't just happen in one summer. I guess what im saying is, if someone or yourselves hear of a decent youngster in the lower leagues, don't be afraid to buff them a bit (within reason). even if they turn out crap it will be fun if there where some players to pick up from the lower leagues that weren't all terrible. ODB was often wrong on there predictions with young talent. But it is still the most played database.

    Regarding top talents with future transfers to their parent club, again I see you are trying to accommodate all players, but I think its better if they are at heir parent club from the start and if they aren't getting games they can be bid on. I know this means releasing players on a free to make space, but they are going to be the lesser ones its not going to be that big a deal. You could put favourite team as the one they should have started at so that if you load up as that team you have a better chance of signing them if you really wanted them back. These freebies could be the little random players that re balance the lack if cheeky gems from the last update. They probably won't be good enough for top teams but enough for smaller clubs to sign up to do a job. Just a thought.
    Last season SteveHarle and The Villan joined the team and both know a lot about English football. I do think they will add these players you are looking for. But once again if you see yourself a good player or hear about it, let us know, so we can increase his stats!

    In my experience if you give the players in the reserve squads no future transfers they will be sold to other clubs very easily. In last DB in the Netherlands we have clubs as Jong Ajax and Jong PSV, their players often leave the club very soon if they don't have a future transfer set. As the club reputation of the reserve squad is lower as their main club and often also lower as clubs in the same league, the players also want to leave these reserve squads.

    About the cheeky gems, I can totally see your point, but in the past a lot of people were complaining about too many gems or 'unrealistic gems'. I guess it's just hard to please everone.

  7. #232

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    To release the new update as fast as possible we could use some help with the research of free players: Join us and help here: https://champman0102.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=318

  8. #233

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    I would like to ask why Pep plays long ball! and Klopp, in fact all the biggest clubs play 3 up top and just punt it up the field!! Not sure whom sets these manager stats, but surely it'd help if they had watched these teams play before!

  9. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by mv8ball View Post
    I would like to ask why Pep plays long ball! and Klopp, in fact all the biggest clubs play 3 up top and just punt it up the field!! Not sure whom sets these manager stats, but surely it'd help if they had watched these teams play before!




    I think youll find its direct and not the long ball, maybe its to make them more hard to beat due to the way the game is coded, I find that the updates these guys produce here are of great quality, we could all pick faults....but as I don't have the time to help I really appreciate what these people do and rather than moan about little things, I enjoy the game....a little appreciation wouldn't go a miss......

  10. #235

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    I think we all appreciate the work is done here, which is why we signed up to the page and give the feedback. If it what was done here was half arsed we wouldn't even waste our time commenting, we'd just crack on with the ODB. We all love and feel strongly about the game and spend far too much time playing it, which is why its so important the balance is found for everyone.

    I put a poll on the facebook group last night and so far over 80 people have responded and with a lot of decent comments too. Over half never played this update, some citing bad posts on the group stopping them bothering (which is poor, as everyone should try it for themselves). A 3rd loved it. and the rest were made up with people thinking it was average, poor or downloaded and played it and went back to the ODB. But as mentioned the comments were the best part as there were good comments about what was liked and disliked. Steve Harle can fill you in on this.

    You are correct upthehammers it is not long ball in this update, it is direct. But as mentioned previously, Guardiola and klopp do not play solely direct passing. I would say Guardiola is the ultimate short passing coach and Klopp is mixed as he plays all styles depending on whats needed.
    Last edited by Kope22; 02-09-19 at 11:59 AM.

  11. #236

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    As there are Fortnite-fans who hate the map has changed so much, Mario Kart fans who think it's awfull there are so many characters to choose from etc. etc. there will always be people who love ODB over the updates and that's fine. If they had frustrations and do wanted to play the update; they could use the feedback topics which are here for every single country and this topic for general issues, but it seems they aren't that bothered, because I haven't seen them here.

    It is really simple; If you want to see changes; let us know! Use the channels we offer you to give feedback and we will take a look at it.

  12. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMCZ View Post
    As there are Fortnite-fans who hate the map has changed so much, Mario Kart fans who think it's awfull there are so many characters to choose from etc. etc. there will always be people who love ODB over the updates and that's fine. If they had frustrations and do wanted to play the update; they could use the feedback topics which are here for every single country and this topic for general issues, but it seems they aren't that bothered, because I haven't seen them here.

    It is really simple; If you want to see changes; let us know! Use the channels we offer you to give feedback and we will take a look at it.
    Yes agreed they need to give feedback and I send the link for these pages around this time during the time the updates are looking for feedback. Most don't seem to bother or are so techno-phobic they think its too much hassle to sign up and find the right page (assuming they haven't seen my link or someone else's). Myself and a lot of the lads are always using teamveiwer and fixing things for the people on the group, so we can tell some just shut off when something remotely technical is mentioned. This is why when i give feedback its from what I hear and see. I hope in the future more will get involved with this forum as there are so many not involved compared the activity on the Facebook page. Anyway i've said what I think will make the game more fun to most people, do with it what you lads will. I look forward to the updates as always.

  13. #238

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    Hi,

    I tried the update yesterday for the very first time (I've always stayed loyal to the ODB until now) and I must say: WOW!! I was really blown away by the level of detail, all the work that has been put into this. Respect. And thanks of course.

    I do have a question however: if this update only affects things you can change with the data editor, how come the update involves tactics as well? And I read something about teams now playing certain tactics as well? I also noticed the game was much harder that it used to be. I don't know if that is the result of the Tapani patch I also used for the first time or that it is the result of the data update.

    In short: does the Data update makes the game more difficult in terms of tactics?

    Thank you!


    Sorry, I already have my answer... And will be crying myself to sleep now...
    Last edited by the Devil's Advocate; 02-09-19 at 09:45 PM.

  14. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kope22 View Post
    Difference is its happening when you have decent players. The overload 4-3-3 tactic with direct passing you have given the AI is impossible to stop with a realistic tactic. You end up having to play central tactics or WIbWob. Even poor teams that play it are scoring freely and before anyone says it must be bad tactics for my defence. I generally have the best defensive records on the multi player live streams. Most people understand the match engine can be manipulated to make it easy to win, whether it be from unrealistic WIbWobbing, centralised tactics or overloading the box with direct passing and long ball and they choose not to play them because its not realistic and too easy. The tactic you've given the AI is making it so you cannot play without an unrealistic tactic. Teams that play direct or long ball IRL are lesser teams with 1 or 2 up top and certainly don't overload the box. Yes some managers will play all forms or passing (mixed) but they don't just lump it all the time. You've given Guardiola and all top managers direct to make the tactic more effective and to apparently share out the goals for the front three, but in doing so you made the game unrealistic and not fun. IMO and many I speak to, I wish you would just put in realistic tactics and stats and let the chips fall where they fall. If you want to create such OP unrealistic tactics and wibwobbed AI it should be done in a different tactics pack that people can download separately. Then I think more people would go back to playing the update. As from the feedback on the Facebook group seems to be people try this update and just go straight back to the ODB.

    There doesn't seem to be enough gems at lesser teams. Most decent youngsters seem to at top sides and either on a loan or future transfer. Could you please get rid of these reserve teams you've created that have a tonne of transfers arranged over many seasons. This is frustrating, you have to wait for years in some cases to have a chance to buy the player. I know there is limited space in squads, but pick the best ones and put them in the actual reserve teams and put the others on free transfers like CM used too (Kieran Richardson I think is a case in point form one of the old databases). I see a lot of people going into the editor and making changes themselves more than ever at the moment.

    People love this game due to the ODB and I think the play-ability and fun of the game these days is very different to that and I believe needs to be moved back towards that. Realistic tactics (as possible) and cheeky gems to keep it fun.

    This is just feedback so please don't take it as a personal attack.
    Amen to all of the above. I'm disappointed to learn the update is not for me. I never liked the tactical side of CM. I've made a few (non wib/wob and non-centred btw) that let my teams perform above average which is exactly what I want. It all comes down to the players then. I don't like to fine tune my tactics; having to change then for every game, having to use wib/wob or what not. That's just not for me. Too bad this whole tactical side of things isn't available as an option for those who want to CHANGE their game instead of just UPDATING their game.

    As for the other point made by Kope22: I fully agree with his point that you should focus too much on realism. If realism is the ultimate goal, I would play Football Manager. But I want FUN. That's why I play CM01/02. So indeed: stick to the main and reserve team. And if a club has more than 50 players: make them free transfers or (in case of loan players) make them property of the club who is loaning them in real life.

    Remember: CM's strong point is fun. Not realism. Let fun be your guide

    If and when a new update will stay true to the fun factor of CM, I will download it immediately. Until then, I can only hope. Because I would loooooove to use the update. It's awesome data-wise.

  15. #240

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    All you need is to download some good tactics and you have exactly what you want I think. Just download a powerfull one, install it and your team will be performing above average. You dont have to worry about tactics with it and can focus at players.

    For some realistic database is part of the fun and this is the direction chosen. Anyone who would like to see things differently can still download the update and alter the data they like. (releasing reserve players, upgrading players atts etc. etc.)

  16. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMCZ View Post
    All you need is to download some good tactics and you have exactly what you want I think. Just download a powerfull one, install it and your team will be performing above average. You dont have to worry about tactics with it and can focus at players.

    For some realistic database is part of the fun and this is the direction chosen. Anyone who would like to see things differently can still download the update and alter the data they like. (releasing reserve players, upgrading players atts etc. etc.)
    Wow that's a disappointing response to read. Tactically the update is far from realistic and to suggest we download an OP tactic to over perform is just the height of ignorance to the fun of the game. We can all create our own ridiculously unrealistic tactic, the points we don't want to have to. I'm gone. I tried to give sensible feedback to help, but clearly you don't understand.

  17. #242

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    Clearly Kope22 is just dissapointed. As am I. His reaction is a bit harsh though. I mean, you don't owe me, him or anybody else for that matter anything. You created something and share it for those who like it. If people don't want it, it's their choice. No reason to slag you off.

    The only thing is that IF your aim was to make a data update for as many players as possible, I fear that you're going down the wrong route. Why aim for realism when you know beforehand you will not even come close given the limitations of CM? Look at the jong Ajax, jong PSV sides for example. They are now separate clubs which (if I'm informed correctly) can even promote to the Premier Division... That's hugely unrealistic. So it seems weird to me that you are OK with such wild unrealism on one hand but strive for great realism on the other...

    But the choice is yours and yours alone. I would have liked to use the updated database, but don't want to alter the core game mechanics. Maybe you should warn people in the opening post that this update is actually not just an update but will affect gameplay as well.

    I sincerely hope you will offer two versions of the update in the future. One with and one without the tactical changes. I believe it would make the update much more popular.

    Kind regards

  18. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Devil's Advocate View Post
    Clearly Kope22 is just dissapointed. As am I. His reaction is a bit harsh though. I mean, you don't owe me, him or anybody else for that matter anything. You created something and share it for those who like it. If people don't want it, it's their choice. No reason to slag you off.

    The only thing is that IF your aim was to make a data update for as many players as possible, I fear that you're going down the wrong route. Why aim for realism when you know beforehand you will not even come close given the limitations of CM? Look at the jong Ajax, jong PSV sides for example. They are now separate clubs which (if I'm informed correctly) can even promote to the Premier Division... That's hugely unrealistic. So it seems weird to me that you are OK with such wild unrealism on one hand but strive for great realism on the other...

    But the choice is yours and yours alone. I would have liked to use the updated database, but don't want to alter the core game mechanics. Maybe you should warn people in the opening post that this update is actually not just an update but will affect gameplay as well.

    I sincerely hope you will offer two versions of the update in the future. One with and one without the tactical changes. I believe it would make the update much more popular.

    Kind regards
    There is this game that started once in 2001/2002. Now football has evolved and a lot of things have changed. Jong Ajax and Jong PSV, you are talking of, are actually playing in the Dutch First Division in real life. Therefore it's too me more realistic to let them play in the Dutch First Division in the game too. It's impossible to stop them from promoting to the Eredivisie with the CM editior, so we cant prevent this. We could make other choices, but are left with the fact the Dutch First Division needs 18 clubs in the game. To me it's a better solution to add the 2 Jong Teams instead of 2 random clubs, who also will never make it to the Premier Division in real life.

    We don't alter the core game mechanics at all. We only update data and offer a Tactics Pack. But even when you download the Update you can decicde to not install the Tactics-pack. So your request for two versions of the update with or without the tactical changes is possible.

  19. #244

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    I'm not arguing about the jong psv and jong ajax situation. I understand you have to choose and there are downsides to each choice. It's just that because you will encounter such unrealistic situations that are out of your control, I feel you shouldn't aim for too much realism on other subjects like the tactics or extra youth teams as separate clubs to accommodate for 50+ players. Personally, I feel that separate club solution is more unrealistic than not having all players at the right club. Especially since we're talking about player nr 51 and onwards which will not be missed by many, I'm sure.

    Having said this, I'm happy to read I can discard those tactics. But how? I already tried copying all files from the zip file except the tactics, but that didn't work. I was still being hammered in games I normally would win... What files did I forgot to ignore?

  20. #245

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    Delete the tactics map and reinstall the game. Reinstall the update but dont copy the tactics folder.

  21. #246

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    Am I looking in the wrong place or does the update not contain a tactics folder? I only see separate tactic-files in the downloaded zip-file... And what's the point of deleting a folder BEFORE reinstalling the game? Thanks again!

  22. #247

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    Just download and copy these to your Data folder (ODB tactics) https://champman0102.co.uk/downloads.php?do=file&id=377

    Have fun with the 433 managers playing Sweeper though. So much better of course

  23. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    Just download and copy these to your Data folder (ODB tactics) https://champman0102.co.uk/downloads.php?do=file&id=377

    Have fun with the 433 managers playing Sweeper though. So much better of course
    Its not enough to change just the tactics, the managers passing style will still be set in the editor. You would have to go through all managers and lower their directness stat. they are all set at 15+. To get short passing, lower it to around 5, for mixed it needs to be lowered to around 10. But you would have to go through a hell of a lot of managers on the update as all seem to be very high. I started this process by filtering managers by the current ability, as mainly its seems only top managers have this set where it shouldn't.

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    I have spoken to Steve Harle on the Facebook group and he suggested I send ideas of what I believe to be realistic tactics which might work for everyone. Here are a couple of tactics I just put together. They will not get the results of the 4-3-3 you created, but this is Non Wibwob and more accurate.
    Pep's Man City https://www.sendspace.com/file/49xaig
    Klopps Liverppol : https://www.sendspace.com/file/ktghdv

    Neither are perfect as Its an AI manger who isn't micro managing, but both are strong and hard to beat and above all realistic imo.

  25. #250

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    Can you upload the .pct files from your testing?

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