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Thread: March 2020 Data Update Feedback

  1. #226

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    Thanks man! Yes I've read a fair mount about intrinsic values and the premise etc, so basically once a player has a 20 for something in-game, it could actually be much more than '20', instrinsicalyl, right. I just wondered as a further to that was there a particular reason why specific things like Anticipation & Decisions were set so low... Kevin De Bruyne in particular I remember had like under 5 for these, and Penalties. So it's basically because Anticipation and Decisions aren't that important in the game, ultimately? If that's the case, it's perfectly understandable to do this if it then makes his stats for things like Passing, Crossing, Creativity etc even more 'powerful' 20s. Penalties I find a little more curious though, as it's surely a relatively important stat in its own right - if a player is a good penalty taker, but has been given a poor stat in the editor (say 3 or less), then even with a high CA, his Penalties attribute will then be average at best in-game, so isn't that going a bit too far?

  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulfitz View Post
    Is there any patches for the 2020 update where man city actually sign any players and give a good account of themselves in the league?

    Im yet to see them sign any decent players in the games ive played so far and are usually behind Tottenham/Leicester for competition
    Agreed
    I am in 2027 now, Pep's just been given the boot, City have been finishing around 7-9th the last couple of years and buying absolute dross players:
    How do we make this more realistic? i want city to challenge liverpool and klopp! I'm Arsenal!!!

  3. #228

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    I'd say it's very realistic given they're 25 pts behind Liverpool in real life

  4. #229

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    Amazing effort for this and previous updates, especially by filling 0's with FM atts for thousands of players! Will you continue using this method during working on next update by using atts from FM20?

    About update, I think there should be more U23 players with -1 and -2 PAs - they form less than 2% of all players in this DB while in original DB there's almost 3% of them. By the way, youngsters from reserves should have 0 PA when it isn't minus or high number IMO. That would make the game less predictable and even more realistic as you won't know how well will player develop.
    I also saw there are numerous 24+ years old players who have minus PA and they shouldn't IMO as they're too old to have them. Are you going to balance minus PA overall selection in near future? (I assume these 35+ form bases for regens so they're exceptions)

    Thank you and best wishes!

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  6. #230

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    Does anyone know why an AI manager would keep playing a 4-3-3 formation even though I've changed their set formation in the editor to 3-4-3?

    I've tried to set it for Lucien Favre at Dortmund as a test, but they keep playing 4-3-3 still. Yet someone like Nuno Espirito Santo (Wolves) does play the 3-4-3 assigned by the editor. I can't see anything in their manager attributes either to see why this is happening. Any ideas?

    EDIT: I did some tests and worked out that a manager with a preferred formation of 3-4-3 also needs their 'Marking' attribute set to at least 18 to actually use it in-game.
    Last edited by dw82; 19-05-20 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Tested and found solution myself.

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  8. #231

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    Im Having trouble with the CM editor on latest update. I can change finances, contract duration and stadium limits but the player attributes that have been saved are not being implemented in the game.

    I have tried re-installing the game.

    Please note this has been done as an administrator.

  9. #232

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    is there any way to drop values and wages down? i think they are much higher than it has to be ( like moise kean expenting 12m / year :O )

  10. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by valmarque View Post
    is there any way to drop values and wages down? i think they are much higher than it has to be ( like moise kean expenting 12m / year :O )
    Are you using a patcher? If so, adjust using that patcher (i.e Nick's) or are you saying the values without "modern finances" are too high?

    So Moise wants 230k a week - Everton are prob paying him not far off that

  11. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redknapp69 View Post
    Are you using a patcher? If so, adjust using that patcher (i.e Nick's) or are you saying the values without "modern finances" are too high?

    So Moise wants 230k a week - Everton are prob paying him not far off that
    yes i am using Nick's patcher. is Currency İnflation working for that?

    Not just Kean, its just an example, Yalcin from Besiktas demands 15m/year for another example

  12. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by valmarque View Post
    yes i am using Nick's patcher. is Currency İnflation working for that?

    Not just Kean, its just an example, Yalcin from Besiktas demands 15m/year for another example
    Change the "Currency Inflation" down then on the patcher - just do trial and error until you are happy with it

  13. #236

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    ok, thank you, i will try it!

  14. #237

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    So I have a new poser, to do with AI tactics, and I'm not sure if it's something to do with the data update.

    I know the update team have done great work in manipulating manager attributes so that AI managers play the 'modern' 4-3-3, with three central mids and then two advanced wingers off a main striker. Which is great. And this is achieved by the managers having a high free role attribute and a low man marking attribute.

    However... all the teams playing this 4-3-3, even the big ones (e.g. Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Tottenham, Bayern to name a few) change to a standard old 4-4-2, specifically when playing tough away games, which generally means they play a more 'defensive' tactic. But why the formation change? It's quite annoying that all the clubs do this...

    EXCEPT, Solskjaer's Man Utd. Solskjaer also has the 4-3-3 preferred formation, but in my tests, United play this consistently every game, even those tough away games in which the other clubs always change to a 4-4-2 instead. So, why is this the case? There has to be something different about Solskjaer's attributes in the data to make this happen, but I'm yet to work out why. Does anyone have any ideas?
    Last edited by dw82; 22-05-20 at 10:55 PM.

  15. #238

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    Looking to solve that too. My guess would be there is no room for a variant of 433 in the preset tactics. So adding a 433 and 433 defensive doesn't result in the 2nd 433 being used in away games. Managers with higher tactics will "plan" for a game whereas the worse managers will go all out even if it means getting hammered.

    You can however put some .pct files in your data folder and they will be picked up by managers of obscure U21 friendlies and the like

  16. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by dangler View Post
    Why is Pogba suddenly just average and Lukaku who was average last 2 updates is suddenly goal scoring god.
    I understand United are crap team at the moment but it shouldn't reflect the players' ability, it's not entirely their fault they play for that team.
    Is it only me that thinks that?

    Glad to finally see Hazard getting some appreciation and update to pefrorm like the team carrying machine he was for Chelsea rather than some random guy with 20's that won't back it up with performance.
    I 100% agree with you, there are some great players with rubbish stats, Pogba being one of them. If Pogba is going through a rough patch, then his current ability should be affected not his potential because we have all seen him at his best as a world cup winner. If he signs for Real Madrid and starts performing again will he suddenly have amazing stats again. Form is temporary, class is permanent. Neymar on the other hand has amazing stats but is so unprofessional he cant stay at the same club for very long. Having said that its still a killer update.

  17. #240

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    As a United fan I think Pogba is spot on in this update, he had two seasons with me where he could be amazing in one game but average for the next 3 or 4 plus he was out injured quite a lot.

    Lukaku is a great striker, he did well in his first season but when benched or played out of position did not score so many goals, his recent form with Inter shows this.

  18. #241

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    IF there is an October or 20/21 season update it would be nice to see the following implemented into the game :-

    1. Change the amount of players who become available on free transfers/running down contracts until the last six months where you can sign them for free. On the ODB very rarely did you get top quality players for free. On the latest updates you could sign a world class 11 for free over 2-4 seasons.

    2. Adjust opponent tactics and style so that it is more suitable and realistic to each club. If you play the premier league nearly all teams play the new 4-3-3 with inverted wingers making them a rollover as they dont have the player quality for these tactics.

    3. Adjust the date of the Champions league/Uefa cup finals as these have never been played 3 days after the final league games, Leaving players too fatigued to play.

    4. Every save the clubs seem to buy the same players ie Liverpool buy Muller, Dortmund buy aubamayang, Man Utd buy immobile or volland. Whilst man city have secure finances and never sign players over many seasons even after losing up to 5 players including Sane for cheap fees, Chelsea/Arsenal also rarely invest.

    Clubs such as Lyon, Ajax, Porto are always in the running for signing top players whilst other European heavyweights do not bid or buy.
    Last edited by paulfitz; 26-05-20 at 09:09 AM.

  19. #242

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    1. We use the real contract data so maybe it's a modern thing.

    2. The tactic is weak, not the players. It'll be reviewed as part of this post

    3. that's a change in saturn's patch so I'd suggest making the request in his patch thread

    4. that's the same every DB, just the players change. Players tend to go clubs with managers of same language/nationality. The lack of investment isn't easy to manipulate in just the data https://champman0102.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8474. There was an issue with contract start dates that wouldn't have been part of the data saturn used.

    Lyon, Porto and Ajax will always have good finances due to ground size, average attendance, lack of competition.
    Last edited by Dermotron; 26-05-20 at 11:43 AM.

  20. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    Looking to solve that too. My guess would be there is no room for a variant of 433 in the preset tactics. So adding a 433 and 433 defensive doesn't result in the 2nd 433 being used in away games. Managers with higher tactics will "plan" for a game whereas the worse managers will go all out even if it means getting hammered.

    You can however put some .pct files in your data folder and they will be picked up by managers of obscure U21 friendlies and the like
    I think I've cracked it @Dermotron, or at least to some extent. From my tests, it appears to be correlated to a manager's 'Attacking' & 'Directness' attributes. Primarily the first, but some combination of both - I havn't worked out the exact criteria but it is clearly those attributes which affect it. So, Solskjaer has 15 Attacking, 10 Directness and always plays the 4-3-3, even in those tough away games. I compared attributes from other managers who always play the 4-3-3 formation, to those who don't (as previously mentioned) and started to see the pattern. It's to do with how attacking and direct they are; with some testing and tweaking, I lowered Mourinho's Attacking to 14, and Directness to 12, and his Tottenham team then played 4-3-3 in every game, and not revert to 4-4-2 in those big away games as previously reported, so that's enough evidence for me that these are the main factors.

    I'm still trying to determine exactly at what figures these are enforced, and to what extent it is just the Attacking attribute, or the combination of both Attacking & Directness, that determines it. For example, Zidane at Real Madrid has only 9 for Directness, lower than Solskjaer, but 20 for Attacking, and his Madrid side play 4-4-2 in loads of away games in my tests, which implies Attacking is the primary attribute for this. Also noteworthy, Graham Potter's Brighton play 4-3-3 in every game, and he has 15 Attacking, 13 Directness; when I applied these attributes to Mourinho, his Spurs side still played the 4-4-2 which suggests it is not purely these two attributes alone which determine it. Perhaps the club's reputation also plays a part? Because the way I see it logically, the AI is playing 4-4-2 in tough away games because this is coded as a more 'attacking' tactic than the 4-3-3 by default, and therefore if the manager is a highly Attacking one, it needs to play that formation to reflect his attributes, aswell as the club mentality. E.g. if Brighton are playing at Liverpool, their reputation is more likely to make them play defensive than Spurs would, and so that change of formation to enforce that is not required. It's all pretty confusing!

    But... in general, it would seem from tests so far that reducing those two attributes to Attacking 14, Directness 12, does have an effect in keeping teams at 4-3-3 away from home. The knock-on from that would be the question, does this affect that team's performance, or the number of goals they score? My observations suggest not, and I know I've seen it mentioned that managers' Attacking stats show no influence on actual goals scored, so I see these changes having no huge effect on that. A bit more testing required I think but it's a start at least.

  21. #244

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    I'll post this separately as it's mildly but not fully related to the previous post.

    Based on my tests, and what you said about tactics @Dermotron, I'm not sure how much a manager's 'Tactics' attribute actually affects formations. Since that's an attribute, rather than a tendency/preference, which can improve, and therefore in theory could mean managers change their systems/formations over time as their stats improve. But I don't think the game is that dynamic, I think formations AI managers are using are down to obviously their preferred formation plus those tendencies as discussed (along with club reputation which as just suggested may play some part in forcing formations based on how attacking the team will be in that game).

    To move onto something similar, but more relevant to 'Data Update Feedback' as is the thread, did you know you can create a kind of 'False 9' player if you tweak a player's positions in the data a certain way? So, for example, if you gave Roberto Firmino, 20 for Free Roles, and Attacking Midfielder, but only 18 for Forward, he would play a kind of False 9 role, as shown here.



    This manipulation of positional data also creates the 'support striker' too so if a player was in a front two, he'd show as withdrawn in the tactic. How much this affects their performance, I don't know, but it's a nice visual touch if you're that way inclined, and it's interesting to show how even slight tweaks in player data can affect tactics in subtle ways.

    I also noticed from my tests of this data, just how many goals there are now (hardly groundbreaking info I know!) and especially how many goals top strikers score - lots of them regularly scoring a goal a game through the whole season, including the likes of Firmino who has great stats and, playing as the main man for an almost unbeatable Liverpool side, isn't that surprising. But I wanted to see if it was possible to really fine tune players to make their performances more 'realistic', without detrimenting the performance of the team as a whole. I came up with this Firmino after lots of fine tuning (his CA is 170):



    This might look 'modest' and 'unspectacular' perhaps, for a world-class striker. But I ran three tests on this; Firmino scored 'only' 16,18, and 8 league goals respectively (playing nearly every game in each)... but, made lots of assists, had a high average rating around 7.8, and Liverpool won the league comfortably, scoring plenty of goals, each time. So I was really pleased with this test - showing how much you can mould a player's performance with some fine tuning of stats, especially thinking about CA15 and intrinsic values. This would be extremely difficult for an update team to do en masse, but I think it's interesting nonetheless.

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  23. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by dw82 View Post
    I'll post this separately as it's mildly but not fully related to the previous post.

    Based on my tests, and what you said about tactics @Dermotron, I'm not sure how much a manager's 'Tactics' attribute actually affects formations. Since that's an attribute, rather than a tendency/preference, which can improve, and therefore in theory could mean managers change their systems/formations over time as their stats improve. But I don't think the game is that dynamic, I think formations AI managers are using are down to obviously their preferred formation plus those tendencies as discussed (along with club reputation which as just suggested may play some part in forcing formations based on how attacking the team will be in that game).

    To move onto something similar, but more relevant to 'Data Update Feedback' as is the thread, did you know you can create a kind of 'False 9' player if you tweak a player's positions in the data a certain way? So, for example, if you gave Roberto Firmino, 20 for Free Roles, and Attacking Midfielder, but only 18 for Forward, he would play a kind of False 9 role, as shown here.



    This manipulation of positional data also creates the 'support striker' too so if a player was in a front two, he'd show as withdrawn in the tactic. How much this affects their performance, I don't know, but it's a nice visual touch if you're that way inclined, and it's interesting to show how even slight tweaks in player data can affect tactics in subtle ways.

    I also noticed from my tests of this data, just how many goals there are now (hardly groundbreaking info I know!) and especially how many goals top strikers score - lots of them regularly scoring a goal a game through the whole season, including the likes of Firmino who has great stats and, playing as the main man for an almost unbeatable Liverpool side, isn't that surprising. But I wanted to see if it was possible to really fine tune players to make their performances more 'realistic', without detrimenting the performance of the team as a whole. I came up with this Firmino after lots of fine tuning (his CA is 170):



    This might look 'modest' and 'unspectacular' perhaps, for a world-class striker. But I ran three tests on this; Firmino scored 'only' 16,18, and 8 league goals respectively (playing nearly every game in each)... but, made lots of assists, had a high average rating around 7.8, and Liverpool won the league comfortably, scoring plenty of goals, each time. So I was really pleased with this test - showing how much you can mould a player's performance with some fine tuning of stats, especially thinking about CA15 and intrinsic values. This would be extremely difficult for an update team to do en masse, but I think it's interesting nonetheless.

    This was "sorta" done many moons back. We had two separate update teams. ODB style and one that concentrated on fine tuning players according to CA15 attributes. Didn't end well, but threw up lots of interesting things which nobody had really looked much into.

  24. #246

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    Yes you can create a 4411 from 442 by manipulating one of the starter strikers to have AM20 A19 (free role doesn't matter too much)

    How much slack did Mane and Salah pick up from Firmino scoring less? And how many goals overall did they differ from not making the change?

  25. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    Yes you can create a 4411 from 442 by manipulating one of the starter strikers to have AM20 A19 (free role doesn't matter too much)

    How much slack did Mane and Salah pick up from Firmino scoring less? And how many goals overall did they differ from not making the change?
    Salah generally did the same from what I remember, 15-20 goals a season. Mane scored noticeably more, always over 20 goals, highest 26 if I remember rightly. Basically I noticed no significant changes in anything else; the intention in the experiment was not simply to make Firmino score less by making him a 'worse' finisher, but to sculpt his profile which meant his attributes did just as much if not more for the team, in his work rate but especially his creativity, movement, unselfishness etc. Having said that, having run a few more tests, he's still scored 30 league goals a couple of times! So there's still that variance there.

    With regards the formations, I think it's more simply down to the Attacking manager attribute that determines whether their teams still play 4-3-3 away from home. I tested this on Klopp, changing his Attacking tendency to 15, Liverpool played 4-3-3 in every single game. And once again, this didn't detriment their goals scored tallies or general performance in any way. So the sumnation is, managers should have 15 or less for Attacking to make them play their 4-3-3 in all matches.

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