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Thread: Tsigalko / van Nistelrooy Thread

  1. #501

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Ha! Guys you need to see this:

    Well, first, I noticed the following attributes receive an additional boost from CA besides the boost from formula above: heading, finishing, marking, positioning, crossing, passing and creativity. I won't get into detail, but its worth mention this additional CA boost can set the in_match_values of those attributes to a max of around 75.

    So far so good, nothing special there. But here comes the interesting part: While I was checking the code of that additional CA boost, I found a really funny bug in the match engine code:

    When the CA of a player is higher than 124 AND the intrinsic value for creativity of that player is higher than 10, then the creativity formula ends up using the intrinsic value of REFLEXES instead of the intrinsic value of CREATIVITY! This is exactly the same bug reported by @Trip on 12/12/12 (very nice date, by the way):



    This screenshot shows CR7 in Oct2019 data in the original .68 .exe (with the bug):



    In the first season his intrinsic for creativity was 8, so the bug didn't occur and he made lots of assists. In the second season, his intrinsic for creativity grow to 13. So now the bug occur and it started to use the reflex value rather than creativity, so his performance and assists dropped.

    This is really a bug and not something intentional, because its very clear in the code that the programmer forgot to update the intrinsic variable in this specific case, so it ends up using the value of the previous attribute in the loop, which by pure coincidence is reflexes.

    The good news is its a pretty easy fix:

    Spoiler!




    Now, some more examples of the bug, and of the fix:

    Messi and De Bruyne are affected by this bug in Oct2019 data because they have CA higher than 124 and intrinsic for creativity higher than 10. So this is how they perform in vanilla .68 .exe, for reference:
    Spoiler!


    Above, they perform worse than expected with few assists because the creativity value is totally ignored and the reflexes value is being used instead!



    Then to confirm the bug, I changed Messi's intrinsic value of reflexes using Greame kelly savegame editor to the max possible value (125):
    Spoiler!


    Above, we can see Messi instantly becomes assist master and performance improves as a whole (even dribbling increases) because it uses reflex value (125) for creativity due to the bug. Thats still in vanilla .68 .exe (without my fix, but with Messi's reflex increased to the max 125 intrinsic with savegame editor).




    Now, back to the original Messi (with low reflexes attribute). And also see De Bruyne below. This is the .68 .exe with my fix to this bug, so now it really uses the creativity value rather than the reflexes:
    Spoiler!


    We can see above that the fix worked fine, because now their performance improved and assists too, due to value of creativity finally being used instead of reflexes. Keep in mind Messi's intrinsic for creativity is 17 (not the 125 from previous screenshot) so thats why he doesn't perform as good as that, but now performs as expected.






    I bet its a similar bug, GKs look so random in the game, i bet its using the wrong attributes somewhere in the code.


    Hi mate,

    was it just the code you applied to get the increase in assists?
    Did you change any attributes? or were they left the same in both tests?

    cheers

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  3. #502

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    Applying the patch will make my one single Feyenoord player who happens to have an intrinsic value for creativity of 33 (so higher than 10) and a CA higher than 124 perform better, that is to say, perform like he should. That's kind of nice of course. And that's how it should be.

    But goodness know what else it will unleash because Ajax and PSV and most European clubs we play will have similar creative, but 'handicapped' players as well and they will also suddenly become more effective

    I am going to check and see which Ajax and PSV players 'qualify' and if their ratings will go up and their number of assist will increase.

    This is going to be very interesting, to keep an eye on all players in my save with a high intrinsic value for creativity!

  4. #503

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    Coys was suggesting in the chatbox the other night that some players in the new patch suddenly become assist machines like de Bruyne and Joao Felix.

    I'm working on a 3.9.68 DB and I created a shortlist of players to look at. Problem is, I can't get CM Scout Intrinsic to give me a list of people with an intrinsic value of over 10. When I looked at people with high creativity, that doesn't mean their intrinsic value is high too. So somebody like Landon Donovan, who on my game has 15 creativity but has much lower intrinsic creativity, is unaffected. The one player I found who clearly is affected positively was Barry Ferguson with 13 assists in 13 games playing as the DMC in a 4-1-3-2 for Rangers.

  5. #504

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeezerCeltic1967 View Post
    was it just the code you applied to get the increase in assists?
    Did you change any attributes? or were they left the same in both tests?
    Just the code. I didnt change any attributes of the players. With the new code the game now uses the creativity value for creativity instead of reflexes value for creativity, thats why increase in assists.

    Quote Originally Posted by faz44 View Post
    Coys was suggesting in the chatbox the other night that some players in the new patch suddenly become assist machines like de Bruyne and Joao Felix.

    I'm working on a 3.9.68 DB and I created a shortlist of players to look at. Problem is, I can't get CM Scout Intrinsic to give me a list of people with an intrinsic value of over 10. When I looked at people with high creativity, that doesn't mean their intrinsic value is high too. So somebody like Landon Donovan, who on my game has 15 creativity but has much lower intrinsic creativity, is unaffected. The one player I found who clearly is affected positively was Barry Ferguson with 13 assists in 13 games playing as the DMC in a 4-1-3-2 for Rangers.
    In cm scout intrinsic, to sort by the intrinsic value of creativity, Click the Settings icon -> Attributes Column -> tick Creativity, you will see a new column Creativity, then just click to sort by this column. Also make sure you choose to display the intrinsic values in the tool settings.

    In the begining of a new save, you won't find many players with more than 10 intrinsic for creativity and CA above 124. I guess the data updaters felt it didn't work so they didn't add big values for creativity. But Barry Fergunson definitelly applies, as he has intrinsic 11 and CA 145. As the seasons go on, the creativity of the existing players increases due to experience gain, and many high PA regens are born with high values for creativity too, so you will find more players in later seasons with creativity higher than 10.

  6. #505

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    Cheers mate,

    i have been tweaking the atts of players after applyying the fix,

    amazing results

    Great find

  7. #506

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Just the code. I didnt change any attributes of the players. With the new code the game now uses the creativity value for creativity instead of reflexes value for creativity, thats why increase in assists.



    In cm scout intrinsic, to sort by the intrinsic value of creativity, Click the Settings icon -> Attributes Column -> tick Creativity, you will see a new column Creativity, then just click to sort by this column. Also make sure you choose to display the intrinsic values in the tool settings.

    In the begining of a new save, you won't find many players with more than 10 intrinsic for creativity and CA above 124. I guess the data updaters felt it didn't work so they didn't add big values for creativity. But Barry Fergunson definitelly applies, as he has intrinsic 11 and CA 145. As the seasons go on, the creativity of the existing players increases due to experience gain, and many high PA regens are born with high values for creativity too, so you will find more players in later seasons with creativity higher than 10.
    It is working, it's definitely working and I'm in mid-November of the first season. Ze Roberto has 13 assists in 11 games off Bayern's left wing. Ferguson still has more assists than games. Emerson can't get a game for Gremio but has 10 assists in their reserves. Bergkamp has way more assists than usual. Even Nick Barmby, who has 13 Intrinstic creativity is into double figures by mid-November, which is keeping McPhail in the reserves with similar numbers.

  8. #507

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    The cm scout download on here is not working,
    can anybody upload it again for me please?


    I take it this is used for viewing players intrinsics as well and it's not a different scouting tool?
    thanks

  9. #508

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeezerCeltic1967 View Post
    The cm scout download on here is not working,
    can anybody upload it again for me please?


    I take it this is used for viewing players intrinsics as well and it's not a different scouting tool?
    thanks
    Beez, in the patches forum, there's a post called CM Scout Intrinsic. It's a Windows 10 app and it's in the Windows Store if you have Windows 10 (where I got it from). If you change the settings, it lets you see the intrinsic atts.

  10. #509

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    Quote Originally Posted by faz44 View Post
    Beez, in the patches forum, there's a post called CM Scout Intrinsic. It's a Windows 10 app and it's in the Windows Store if you have Windows 10 (where I got it from). If you change the settings, it lets you see the intrinsic atts.
    cheers pal,

    already had the fecking thing

  11. #510

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    In the beginning of a new save, you won't find many players with more than 10 intrinsic for creativity and CA above 124. I guess the data updaters felt it didn't work so they didn't add big values for creativity. But Barry Ferguson definitely applies, as he has intrinsic 11 and CA 145. As the seasons go on, the creativity of the existing players increases due to experience gain, and many high PA regens are born with high values for creativity too, so you will find more players in later seasons with creativity higher than 10.
    I am in my sixth season with Feyenoord and have one player with a creativity value of 33. The next highest is 6.
    Ajax has a player with the highest creativity value of 9 and PSV even lower apart from two 35-year-olds (Alexis Sánchez and Mkhitaryan) so fixing the bug will not make a huge difference to my save but it might make European top clubs stronger.

    Alaxis Sánchez's career has been severely affected by the bug though. Just 3 assists a year! The same goes for Mkhitaryan and Agüero. Far too few assists in their careers.

  12. #511

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    @MadScientist: This is amazing work mate. You are 100% correct with your findings - definitely a bug in the game, and with one byte you've fixed it after all these years! I'm trying to work out what's going on with Goalkeepers as that has always puzzled me. Dimitri Chiotis, Hugo Pinheiro, etc always had weakish stats but are legends of the game - so something is afoot. It's not obvious, but looking for oddities around that similar code. (ESI+6D points to the player attributes, ESI+69 points to the staff details (so +8 of that is the surname so you can check the player). There's some weird maths for it to do it's calcs - but will see what I can come up with!)

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  14. #512

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Yes , or apply the patch fix with the link below:



    I created a patch for this fix:

    UnlockYourCreativity.patch

    Right click the link above, select "Save link as", then save it somewhere in your computer.

    Then open Nick's tool, click Browse and choose your cm0102.exe (.68, tapani or saturn), then click Tools, Apply patchfile, select the .patch file you saved above. You will see something like "patch applied successfully". Then just close the tool. Dont click Apply. Thats all.
    I always had this feeling I should be using my GK as playmaker in central midfield ...

    The stuff you guys manage to figure out! Wowzers! Thanks so much for this!!

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  16. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick+Co View Post
    @MadScientist: This is amazing work mate. You are 100% correct with your findings - definitely a bug in the game, and with one byte you've fixed it after all these years! I'm trying to work out what's going on with Goalkeepers as that has always puzzled me. Dimitri Chiotis, Hugo Pinheiro, etc always had weakish stats but are legends of the game - so something is afoot. It's not obvious, but looking for oddities around that similar code. (ESI+6D points to the player attributes, ESI+69 points to the staff details (so +8 of that is the surname so you can check the player). There's some weird maths for it to do it's calcs - but will see what I can come up with!)
    Thank you Nick.

    Another day I had a quick look at GKs code in that function but I didnt find anything odd. I noticed some attributes seem to get a small boost if the player is a GK: handling, reflexes, one on ones, anticipation, decisions, jumping, professionalism and important matches. I suppose this means they are important attributes for GKs. Strange that positioning gets a small penalty if the player is a GK, but the way its coded looks like something intentional and not a bug. I didn't do the experiment suggested by Dermot yet though. Anyway, I still believe there must be some odd bug about GKs somewhere in the code.

  17. #514

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Thank you Nick.

    Another day I had a quick look at GKs code in that function but I didnt find anything odd. I noticed some attributes seem to get a small boost if the player is a GK: handling, reflexes, one on ones, anticipation, decisions, jumping, professionalism and important matches. I suppose this means they are important attributes for GKs. Strange that positioning gets a small penalty if the player is a GK, but the way its coded looks like something intentional and not a bug. I didn't do the experiment suggested by Dermot yet though. Anyway, I still believe there must be some odd bug about GKs somewhere in the code.
    Good to know! For now your bug fix has already unlocked the creativity of one player in my save which is really nice!

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  19. #515

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    I didn't do the experiment suggested by Dermot yet though. Anyway, I still believe there must be some odd bug about GKs somewhere in the code
    Let me know if you do! I have tried creating and using many different goalkeepers - no revelations really. The hardest part is that there's no way to get handling very high without a high CA, as other CA attributes will get a good share of the CA points before Handling. Not sure if that was intentional or not.

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  21. #516

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick+Co View Post
    The hardest part is that there's no way to get handling very high without a high CA, as other CA attributes will get a good share of the CA points before Handling. Not sure if that was intentional or not.
    Yes, if I get what you mean, thats how it works for any CA attribute, they share CA points, so to have a high intrinsic for an attribute, you need to set the other attributes low in the editor, or increase the CA. But you can always use savegame editor to increase the intrinsic values later.

    I cant find the thread now, but Dermotron made lots of experiments with GKs in the past, he was able to create some GKs with really insane intrinsic values for handling, reflexes, one-on-ones etc, and great mental/physical atts, and it didn't seem to make any difference in their performance, they actually performed very poorly, so its really weird why some GKs with poor attributes perform so well.

  22. #517

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    thats how it works for any CA attribute, they share CA points, so to have a high intrinsic for an attribute
    True, but it's especially hard to get Handling to take its fair share of the CA points - it seems weighted to give almost any other CA attribute the points first, before handling.

    But you can always use savegame editor to increase the intrinsic values later....and it didn't seem to make any difference in their performance
    I did the same thing - but did find it made quite a difference. But the differences don't last - as the player updates, and the other attributes get the points and take from handling, which is the most important.

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  24. #518

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick+Co View Post
    True, but it's especially hard to get Handling to take its fair share of the CA points - it seems weighted to give almost any other CA attribute the points first, before handling.
    Interesting.

    The CA attributes are divided in different groups and the CA points are spread to each group with a different priority. I remember the groups for outfield players, but not for GKs. You can know the groups for GKs if you give 20s to all 18 CA attributes of a GK and check his intrinsics on game created. The attributes that then have the same intrinsic value belong to the same group.

    For outfield players, handling is alone in the lowest priority group, so I would expect for GKs handling would be in the highest priority group. But as per your observation, it seems its not, so it may be a bug indeed, which would cause few goalkeepers with high handling on the first seasons of new games. But that still wouldn't explain why some GKs with poor attributes perform so well and some with good atts perform poorly.

    One more thing: when creating goalkeeper in the editor, you can't leave any of the 48 attributes as 0, otherwise there is a known bug that causes all his non-0 attributes to mess up when game created.

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    But that still wouldn't explain why some GKs with poor attributes perform so well and some with good atts perform poorly.
    I think it might explain it, as the only way to end up with very high intrinsic Handling is for the CA to be relatively low and all other stats pretty low. If other stats look good - it makes handling intrinsic's value go down. But all just theory - will delve into it more

  26. #520

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    Is gk save game editor the best way to check the intrinsic value in game?

  27. #521

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    Beezer: I use the Save Scouter in my patcher. But either mine, GK's or "CM Scout Intrinsic" are the only ways I know of.

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  29. #522

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    Could some bold folk try a patch for me?
    Code:
    0x138e7b 0x7c 0xeb
    0x139404 0x75 0xeb
    And then start a new game and let me know what you think of the goalkeepers and their stats. Especially with regards to Handling and Reflexes? (just a normal player search with the attributes view set to goalkeeping should give you a feel).

    This patch turns off some goalkeeper specific stats twiddling that goes on which I think might be harming goalkeepers. In particular it almost forces reflexes to be weak if handling is high.

  30. #523

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick+Co View Post
    Beezer: I use the Save Scouter in my patcher. But either mine, GK's or "CM Scout Intrinsic" are the only ways I know of.
    thank you

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick+Co View Post
    Could some bold folk try a patch for me?
    Code:
    0x138e7b 0x7c 0xeb
    0x139404 0x75 0xeb
    And then start a new game and let me know what you think of the goalkeepers and their stats. Especially with regards to Handling and Reflexes? (just a normal player search with the attributes view set to goalkeeping should give you a feel).

    This patch turns off some goalkeeper specific stats twiddling that goes on which I think might be harming goalkeepers. In particular it almost forces reflexes to be weak if handling is high.

    im heading out with the wee man just now but will happily do this for you this evening if you tel me how

  31. #524

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    How did you get on?
    Did you think it made a big difference to the Gks?

    - - - Updated - - -

    where has all the replies etc went?

  32. #525

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    Good morning all
    I am new to the forum but I have been playing at cm 01 02 for a very long time. The discoveries made by some of you confirm me in the key attributes per player.
    For me, we can see it this way:
    - GB: det + hand
    - DC: det + pla + tac
    -MDC: same DC
    -MC: det + pass + cre
    -DDG: det + pla + cen
    -BT: det + Off + Finishing

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