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Thread: Tsigalko / van Nistelrooy Thread

  1. #526

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    I did some more testing with the "unlock your creativity"-patch, no vacationing this time. I had three very creative players (intrinsic values 40-60) and they kept passing the ball to each other, around 100 passes per game for all of them. As a result of this the striker only had a handful of passes per match, rarely got the ball at all. And the creative players seemed to tire quicker from being involved in the action all the match. Basically it changed the whole dynamics of how the matches are played, so be careful..

  2. #527

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicAnt View Post
    I did some more testing with the "unlock your creativity"-patch, no vacationing this time. I had three very creative players (intrinsic values 40-60) and they kept passing the ball to each other, around 100 passes per game for all of them. As a result of this the striker only had a handful of passes per match, rarely got the ball at all. And the creative players seemed to tire quicker from being involved in the action all the match. Basically it changed the whole dynamics of how the matches are played, so be careful..
    yeah thanks for testing. Definitelly, that makes sense, I suppose this adds more tactical possibilities to the game, and you will want to adjust your tactics accordingly. For example, with creative midfielders, now you should be able to decide if you want to keep the ball possession (as you described), or if you want to make creative passes to your striker. To keep the ball possesion, I suppose you had 'try trough balls' instruction disabled? And to make key passes to your striker, I expect the 'try to balls' instruction will finally be useful, did you try that? Mentallity (defensive, normal, attacking) and passing type (direct, short, etc) should also affect it.

    In the game stats screen, keep an eye in the ammount of passes and the ammount of key passes. Key passes are assists (which resulted in goals) AND passes that almost resulted in goals. So you can keep an eye on those stats to see if your creative midfielders are working as expected (either keeping the ball possession with few key passes, or feeding your striker with many key passes).

    Also keep in mind the ammount of key passes may also have relation with other attributes besides creativity. Like, passing attribute, determination, teamwork, work-rate, etc, im just guessing, but that makes sense. Even aggression might help but im just guessing too (i found some evidence, but didn't confirm yet, that high aggression makes the players more offensivelly minded when possessing the ball, besides being used on tackling as we know). And for key passes to occurr, its also important that your striker has high off the ball. And for the striker to transform key passes into goals, then make sure he has high pace, work rate, anticipation and acceleration. By the way, Im pretty sure one-on-ones is an important attribute for strikers (although I have never proved it), so you may want your striker to have a good one-on-ones, to transform those key passes into goals.

    But definitelly, this adds a whole new dynamic to the game. Tactics that used to work fine may now be less effective, and vice versa. Even defensivelly, you may want to adjust your tactics: use high pressing instruction to try to steal the ball from those tick-tacka midfielders, or use man marking instruction on the opponent striker to protect yourself from now powerfull try trough balls from the opposing team. I expect marking, positioning, pace, anticipation, acceleration, to become more important now for DCs. And make sure to have a GK who is good on one-on-ones.
    Last edited by MadScientist; 08-01-20 at 10:03 PM. Reason: added one more paragraph, now about defensive

  3. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicAnt View Post
    I did some more testing with the "unlock your creativity"-patch, no vacationing this time. I had three very creative players (intrinsic values 40-60) and they kept passing the ball to each other, around 100 passes per game for all of them. As a result of this the striker only had a handful of passes per match, rarely got the ball at all. And the creative players seemed to tire quicker from being involved in the action all the match. Basically it changed the whole dynamics of how the matches are played, so be careful..
    Scemoka talks about this on a few of his tactics and selects Direct passing when his players (generally defenders) are passing the ball to each other endlessly. He also suggests only one super creative player in the eleven.

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  5. #529

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    All very well, but that will not help with AI-controlled teams.

  6. #530

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1369phil View Post
    Scemoka talks about this on a few of his tactics and selects Direct passing when his players (generally defenders) are passing the ball to each other endlessly. He also suggests only one super creative player in the eleven.
    yes, yes! I always say that sharpness is very important. Only one super creativie player is enough. Especially at AMC or second striker role. This is best, because AMC or second striker FC - are generally at opposite box, by this way more passes - more assists.
    If you don't have super creative AMC or FC, at anywhere in central midline (MLC-MC-MRC) one high creative player can be used with direct passing and try through balls. At DML-DMR- DC -DMC line i never use high creativity as main player.
    (If you have player whom you don't want to sell, wingback-winger-DMC...etc, use him as reserve substitution player occasionally -for holding game - for closing out game.)
    Endless passing causes less goal attemps. Sometimes they are passing too much too,even though DC-DMC are not creative, opponent plays defensively-man behind ball.. at these situations i switch to direct passing. 25-35 passing / per one player for all team is effective. Around 25/35 for every player - you can reach 15-20 goal attemps.
    Last edited by scemoka; 10-01-20 at 07:35 PM.

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  8. #531

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    All very well, but that will not help with AI-controlled teams.
    Maybe that will. The AI doesn't know about the creativity bug, so it is programmed to assume creativity is working fine.

    For example, the AI likes to sign high intrinsic creativity regens, maybe expecting they will fill some tactical role, but those players don't work as the AI would expect due to the bug. Now those players work as expected by the AI.

    Also, the AI is able to perform tactical changes and take tactical decisions based on match circunstances and other variables, like changing some instructions like mentality etc. So it is quite possible the AI is able to make some tactical changes based on creativity (who knows?), so this fix would actually be helping AI tactical decisions to work as expected.

  9. #532

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Below are just some tests I made when I was debuging the formula above:

    As I said, the max in_match_value to occur naturally is around 45. But with some hack in the game .exe I gave a 120 in_match_value for dribbling during a match for the striker player below (much more than 45):
    Can you give me this in a patch please, and for other attributes please? I'd like to test this out for myself, if you can spare the time? Thanks

  10. #533

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Below are just some tests I made when I was debuging the formula above:

    As I said, the max in_match_value to occur naturally is around 45. But with some hack in the game .exe I gave a 120 in_match_value for dribbling during a match for the striker player below (much more than 45):
    Quote Originally Posted by eddieC View Post
    Can you give me this in a patch please, and for other attributes please? I'd like to test this out for myself, if you can spare the time? Thanks
    For the 120 in_match_value hack test, I didn't use any patches, I did it manually in Olly while debugging the .exe in real time. I added a conditional breakpoint in the in_match_value offset of the desired attributes, to be triggered only for the player I wanted, and whenever it was triggered, I overwritted manually his in_match value with 120 in memory. So, it was a time consuming process, and I don't know an easy way to do this via patch because there is few space in the .exe to put conditional checks, unless you want to give 120 to all players (then it would be an easy patch).

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  12. #534
    The free role should be far more profitable now, for AI and for the human player. Creativity is the main att for that I think.

  13. #535

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    Good evening, after two seasons and applying the creativity patch, I noticed a bug on a player. He had 26 in positioning with intrinsic scout cm and the season after 235. By cons 26 is moved on the passes ?????

  14. #536

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    Quote Originally Posted by nimois View Post
    Good evening, after two seasons and applying the creativity patch, I noticed a bug on a player. He had 26 in positioning with intrinsic scout cm and the season after 235. By cons 26 is moved on the passes ?????
    hi, that has nothing to do with the creativity patch. The instrinsic scout tool changed the way the values are displayed in the last few days, and the tool updates automatically. If you didn't notice the update you may be confusing it with the old values.

  15. #537

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick+Co View Post
    Could some bold folk try a patch for me?
    Code:
    0x138e7b 0x7c 0xeb
    0x139404 0x75 0xeb
    And then start a new game and let me know what you think of the goalkeepers and their stats. Especially with regards to Handling and Reflexes? (just a normal player search with the attributes view set to goalkeeping should give you a feel).

    This patch turns off some goalkeeper specific stats twiddling that goes on which I think might be harming goalkeepers. In particular it almost forces reflexes to be weak if handling is high.

    Did you get chance to look at the save i uploaded?
    I never noticed much difference in the performance of the goalkeepers tbh mate,Maybe needs tweaking?

    cheers

  16. #538

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    Thanks Madscientist. I understand now.

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  18. #539

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    I found this now in the match engine code: While a player is out of his preferred positions and/or preferred sides during a match, the intrinsic value of his tactical attributes (positioning, marking, anticipation, off the ball, creativity, and maybe decisions) get a penalty. And the higher his versatility value is, the less penalty. Lets call it Positional Penalty.

    Paragraph above is all you need to know about the Positional Penalty.

    But if you want more in-deep details about how this Positional Penalty works, you can read the spoiler below (beware, long text):

    Spoiler!


    And for those interested in the code technical details of the Positional Penalty, see the spoiler below (beware, programmer terms ahead):

    Spoiler!

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  20. #540

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    Great work, MadS!

    I've always wondered how these things work.


    Also, I'm wondering, when it comes to positional penalty, how do arrows come into play?

    For example, if a player has, say 10 for MC, 20 for AMC, is he considered out of position if I'm playing him as a farrowed MC?

    Or, if a player has 20 for DR, 10 for WBR (or DMR), is he considered out of position if I'm playing him as a farrowed DR?


    What is the natural position for a player with WB=20?

    Is there a difference between a player with WBR=20 DMR=1, and a player with WBR=1 DMR=20?


    What about players with 20 for Free Role? Can I play them anywhere on the pitch, if I enable Free Role in Player Instructions?

    Sooo many questions!
    Last edited by Gooda; 22-01-20 at 12:56 PM.

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  22. #541

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    Great sequence of findings and posts, MS. All of this is truly impressive

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  24. #542

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    Great work, MadS!

    I've always wondered how these things work.


    Also, I'm wondering, when it comes to positional penalty, how do arrows come into play?

    For example, if a player has, say 10 for MC, 20 for AMC, is he considered out of position if I'm playing him as a farrowed MC?

    Or, if a player has 20 for DR, 10 for WBR (od DMR), is he considered out of position if I'm playing him as a farrowed DR?


    What is the natural position for a player with WB=20?

    Is there a difference between a player with WBR=20 DMR=1, and a player with WBR=1 DMR=20?


    What about players with 20 for Free Role? Can I play them anywhere on the pitch, if I enable Free Role in Player Instructions?

    Sooo many questions!
    each discovery brings new questions. I don't know the answer to them but should be easy to find out if I debug test it on the positional penalty offset.

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  26. #543

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    Oh, I do have more questions!


    I'm curious if there's some sort of a penalty for tactical attributes when playing away from home, and conversely, a bonus when playing at home.

    The idea is that Positioning and Off the Ball get reduced when playing away, and get a bonus when playing at home.


    Also, I have a theory, and zero evidence, that the choice of mentality in Team Instructions manifests through penalties and bonuses to tactical attributes.

    Something like, Attacking boosts Off the Ball, but reduces Positioning; and conversely, Defensive boosts Positioning, but reduces Off the Ball.


    At least, that's how my gut feeling explains the huge difference in results and performances when playing with the same tactics home and away.

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  28. #544

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    Also, I'm wondering, when it comes to positional penalty, how do arrows come into play?
    I checked and found out that the player gets an additional positional penalty if his arrow is pointing to a position or side where he isn't 20. This penalty from arrow is 4x less strong than the penalty from circle. So if your player is getting a -20 positional penalty for being in the wrong position circle, and you add an arrow to him that points to another wrong position, he can get a -5 additional penalty resulting in -25 positional penalty total (its like he has to adapt tactically to 2 new positions during the match).

    However, if your player circle is in his bad position, and the arrow is pointed to his preferred position, then he gets a less strong total penalty than if he didn't have any arrow.

    So, if you like to use arrows, make sure the player is good on the position of both his circle and his arrow pointer, or make sure he has high versatility!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    For example, if a player has, say 10 for MC, 20 for AMC, is he considered out of position if I'm playing him as a farrowed MC?
    Yes, but for MC and AMC the logic is a bit different. For MC circle, if his MC value is much less than his AMC value, it uses his AMC value subtracted by 5 instead of his MC value. So it will use value 15 in your example for his MC circle instead of 10, but still out of position (not 20).

    And his arrow to AMC wont remove the penalty but will reduce it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    Or, if a player has 20 for DR, 10 for WBR (or DMR), is he considered out of position if I'm playing him as a farrowed DR?
    Yes!! He gets a penalty in his tactical attributes if the arrow is pointing to the DMR position! So you may prefer to use forward runs and/or run with ball instruction instead of arrow, or make sure he has 20 for the position where his arrow is pointing, or make sure he has high versatility!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    What is the natural position for a player with WB=20?
    Its the wide DM circles (DMR DML). Thats the only position where he wont get positional penalty (if he is just WB=20 and nothing else 20).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    Is there a difference between a player with WBR=20 DMR=1, and a player with WBR=1 DMR=20?
    Yes! The code shows the DMR 20 player is supposed to have an arrow pointing from the DMR circle to the center (even if his center value is low)!!!! If he doesn't have an arrow pointing to the center, he will get a huge penalty!!!! Use the WBR 20 player if you don't want arrow to center.

    However, the DMR 20 player is very useful if his DR is also 20, because then you can put him in the DR position with an arrow to DMR without getting any penalty (as the arrow pointer to DMR uses the DMR value and not the WBR).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    What about players with 20 for Free Role? Can I play them anywhere on the pitch, if I enable Free Role in Player Instructions?
    No, but I see in the code there's two situations where free role can reduce the positional penalty, I just can't understand when and wasn't able to trigger it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooda View Post
    Sooo many questions!
    Good questions. All items above where confirmed by me in the code. I pretty much rewritten the whole positional penalty code in human readable code and everything is clear. In a couple weeks will post it, just checking some small details.
    Last edited by MadScientist; 25-01-20 at 07:11 PM.

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  30. #545

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    MadScientist,
    Your research is great, but are you not afraid to completely kill the interest in the game?

  31. #546

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    Thank you for answering my questions, MadScientist! Fantastic work!

    I was expecting some simple logic behind this, to confirm my hunches, but some of these findings are just weird!


    I don't think that knowing this spoils the game. We're not exactly spoon-fed with underlying attribute values in-game, and there's no easy way of deducing them.

    For example, coach reports don't say anything about Versatility attribute, they say a player is versatile if he's got 15+ in multiple positions, even if Versatility is low.

    We're still supposed to go by feel, to find out what works, which is fine.

    But some things in the game are not very intuitive or helpful, and knowing underlying logic helps. I like the idea of being able to make more informed decisions, and not stick to some false presumptions.


    And I suppose, the update team will find these findings interesting, so they can model players more accurately.


    Looking forward to see what else you're going to find out! Keep up the good work!

  32. #547

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    Quote Originally Posted by vfilatov View Post
    MadScientist,
    Your research is great, but are you not afraid to completely kill the interest in the game?
    Don't worry. All he is saying is that players should play in their favourite position. And that there is a penalty for using them in another position. And we've always assumed that

    It's nice to know the game is realistic in that sense.

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