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Thread: Natural Born Freaks

  1. #201
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    I still don't get my head around this properly. If you use the official editor and give a player a 20 for finishing, and then load up GK editor to check the intrinsic value, it will be a 'high' value. Sometimes it will be 65, other times it will be 83. They're both considered "great", so why bother anyway?

    If anything I have adjusted my player searches to look for players with 20's. I used to go for all-rounders with 16 and above for pretty much everything, but clearly a few 20's beats everything else.

  2. #202
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    There can be players with finishing 10 but with higher intrinsic value... that's the thing you are missing. A player with a 5,7,9 whatever... can be better than somebody with a 20, because the intrinsic value is higher
    There can also be players with a 20 with an intrinsic value of 230 (which is bad, I know this sound weird)

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben_ View Post
    There can be players with finishing 10 but with higher intrinsic value... that's the thing you are missing. A player with a 5,7,9 whatever... can be better than somebody with a 20, because the intrinsic value is higher
    There can also be players with a 20 with an intrinsic value of 230
    (which is bad, I know this sound weird)
    I think the highlighted statements are wrong. If you look at the below screenshots:

    A "normal" attribute of 7 has an intrinsic value between 170-179





    While a "normal" attribute of 20 has an intrinsic value between 16 and 128




    It's interesting that the interval for 20 is so much bigger than the interval for 7. So I kind of get why people are interested in this stuff now, a 110/20 would be far stronger than a 16/20, but I believe it only applies to 20's? There's not much point in looking for a "strong" 7? And in this thread people seem to be happy if a player has somewhere between 50 and 128 for their 20, and as far as I've tested players usually end up somewhere along this interval anyway if you give them a 20 in the official editor.

    So... is this much fuss over nothing? Or am I still misunderstanding something important?

  4. #204
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    Ehm, tried looking at another player and the intervals were different - 20 suddenly started at 9 rather than 16. This makes no sense to me... Better off looking for 20's.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLa View Post
    Ehm, tried looking at another player and the intervals were different - 20 suddenly started at 9 rather than 16. This makes no sense to me... Better off looking for 20's.
    128 is the absolute top intrinsic rating you can have for anything. 129 is the worst. When you hit the 200 mark you are in to 'average' territory. From the 230 mark you are above average. Remember the intrinsic value flips back to zero after 255, 0 is actually pretty good. If you follow this you can see in your example there is very little difference between an intrinsic of 9 and 16, they are both decent.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveV View Post
    128 is the absolute top intrinsic rating you can have for anything. 129 is the worst. When you hit the 200 mark you are in to 'average' territory. From the 230 mark you are above average. Remember the intrinsic value flips back to zero after 255, 0 is actually pretty good.
    Yes, this I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveV View Post
    If you follow this you can see in your example there is very little difference between an intrinsic of 9 and 16, they are both decent.
    What I don't understand is why this is different from one player to another. Player A has intrinsic value 9-128 for "20", while player B has intrinsic value 16-128 for "20". I did a third test with player C and his "20" didn't start until 35.

    Is it related to CA in some way?

    Also, does intrinsic increase with training? If a player has intrinsic 125 for something and you train him - will it then reach 129 and turn his 20 attribute into a 1? I can't imagine that would be the case..?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLa View Post
    Yes, this I understand.



    What I don't understand is why this is different from one player to another. Player A has intrinsic value 9-128 for "20", while player B has intrinsic value 16-128 for "20". I did a third test with player C and his "20" didn't start until 35.
    Because there isn't enough of an ability range using a 1-20 scale to make an obvious difference in the match engine. If attributes were rated from 1 - 100 you could have Strikers with 10 for finishing for example who would almost never score, whereas there are plenty of those in the game who can bang in 20 goals a season using the correct tactic. However the algorithmn for deciding what the game score is going to be works, if a 20 for Off The Ball striker plays against a 20 for Positioning defender they would cancel each other out - UNTIL the intrinsic value kicks in, so if the IV for the striker is 30 and the IV for the Defender is 0 the striker is going to have a good day. If it was the other way around the striker almost certainly won't score.

  8. #208
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    Here is a pretty good striker

    https://imgur.com/a/ohwn3sl

    (For who ever helped me get the picture directly in the post, thanks! - It's a long and convoluted story why and how I deleted the post and now have to redo it but the point is: I still can't figure out to get the picture in the post it self, sorry about that.)

  9. #209
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    This guy is absolutely ridicolous! Also only 18
    http://prntscr.com/ljzaay

    And this is how he appears in the CM Scout Intrinsic:
    http://prntscr.com/ljzamh

    He's only 6CA / 42 PA.
    Last edited by Dermotron; 19-11-18 at 02:05 PM. Reason: tried adding img tags

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  11. #210
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    He has got 107 intrinsic for off the ball!

  12. #211
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    Yeah, he's an absolute BEAST

  13. #212
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    To Madeira on steroids

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  15. #213
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    Is right, Derm.

  16. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben_ View Post
    There can be players with finishing 10 but with higher intrinsic value... that's the thing you are missing. A player with a 5,7,9 whatever... can be better than somebody with a 20, because the intrinsic value is higher
    There can also be players with a 20 with an intrinsic value of 230 (which is bad, I know this sound weird)
    This is surely the most confusing part.

    We can all understand that a player with 20 for finishing and intrinsic +5 is not as good as a player with 20 for finishing and intrinsic +40. The intrinsic value makes one 20 rated striker better than another, which is fair enough.

    But the fact that a player with 14 for finishing and intrinsic +5 is not as good as a player with 12 for finishing and intrinsic +40 is what makes it confusing.

    Basically, then, there are two numbers which the engine uses: the rating you see in-game plus the rating you don't see in-game (intrinsic) and that second number can sometimes be exceptionally low or high. Only you don't know. Unless you use GK Save game editor or CM Scout Intrinsic.

    Do I understand this correctly?

  17. #215
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    Yes.

    Except that you maybe have a bit of a bleak view of things. Any striker with 20 finishing will be decent, even better if they have decent ratings in other complementary attributes, in particular off the ball.

  18. #216
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    Also true. The same goes for high CA (120+) players with good stats in the right areas. Even if their instrinsic value look shitty, they usually still perform quite well.

  19. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben_ View Post
    Also true. The same goes for high CA (120+) players with good stats in the right areas. Even if their instrinsic value look shitty, they usually still perform quite well.
    which means that CM Scout Intrinsic can be off, because that app gives a low score to players with low intrinsic values even if there CA is high and their in-game atts are high.

  20. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsami View Post
    But the fact that a player with 14 for finishing and intrinsic +5 is not as good as a player with 12 for finishing and intrinsic +40 is what makes it confusing.
    Thats a good question, and this is an answer:

    The in-game value of a CA15 attribute represents how strong the player is in that attribute in relation to his other CA15 attributes. So, its relative, not absolute. The distribution of the in-game attributes of a player allows you to know the characteristics of the player, but not how good he is in each attribute in an absolute way.

    The hidden intrinsic value of a CA15 attribute represents how strong the player is in that attribute in an absolute way. Most people assume this is what an in-game attribute represent, but that has been proven to be wrong. The developers of the game have choosen to keep this "absolute" values hidden, probably because they want you to use the in-game attributes only for you to have a picture of the characteristics of the player, and not for you to know exactly how good he is. So, they probably want you to then pick the players based on their characteristics and based on their perfomances from matches, test them during matches in your team, and only then decide if they are good or not for your objectives, to simulate real life.

    Thats why a 12 in-game for a player's finishing can actually result to be stronger than a 14 in-game for another player's finishing, when translated from the player's own relative context to the absolute context.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsami View Post
    Basically, then, there are two numbers which the engine uses: the rating you see in-game plus the rating you don't see in-game (intrinsic) and that second number can sometimes be exceptionally low or high. Only you don't know. Unless you use GK Save game editor or CM Scout Intrinsic.
    Thats right, you can't see the intrinsic number in the game. However, knowing that the in-game CA15 attribute values are relative to each other for a player, you can guess the intrinsic number in some cases: For example, if a player has lots of very low in-game CA15 attributes but only two very high in-game CA15 attributes, you know he is relativelly much better in those two attributes than in the rest of his attributes, so this likelly means his intrinsics for those two attributes are insanelly high and/or the rest of his intrinsics are insanelly low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben_ View Post
    Also true. The same goes for high CA (120+) players with good stats in the right areas. Even if their instrinsic value look shitty, they usually still perform quite well.
    Quote Originally Posted by samsami View Post
    which means that CM Scout Intrinsic can be off, because that app gives a low score to players with low intrinsic values even if there CA is high and their in-game atts are high.
    A high CA player with good in-game attributes in the right areas won't have shitty nor low intrinsic for those attributes. At the very least, he will have average intrinsics for those attribute (like a -20, or 235, which is an average value, not shitty and not low) and will surelly perform quite well indeed. But I understand what you (Ruben) mean.

    I don't know if you (Samsami) are saying this because you deduced it from Ruben's post, or if you have observed it in the app, anyway I just tested it in the app and its not actual. Like 99% of high CA players got a high score in the app in my test, so i think the app works as expected, unless i'm misunderstanding what you (Samsami) mean.
    Last edited by MadScientist; 25-11-18 at 07:32 PM.

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  22. #219
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    Load the 3968DB into CM Scout and filter by DMC for ex. The highest rated? Vieira, Batty, Keane, Tommasi, Davids, Gattuso, Kaluzny, Dacourt... it looks OK don't you think? Looking at Vieira he also has standout intrinsics in passing, tackling, positioning, all >0.

    Also, the profiles to apply to the searches are completely customisable, so it is easy enough to create a filter for removing freak low PA players if that is what you prefer. I would say that CM Scout Intrinsic cannot be 'off' because you have full control over how to search, including reducing the importance of freak high intrinsic values.

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  24. #220
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    Found while scouting for my Intrinsic story... a striker with 116 heading!



    The 20 jumping ain't gonna hurt!

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  26. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Dalglish's Smile View Post
    Found while scouting for my Intrinsic story... a striker with 116 heading!



    The 20 jumping ain't gonna hurt!
    Wow thats fantastic! Never seen anything like that, 20 for jumping and a 116 for heading! You must buy this guy

    Unfortunatelly his off the ball is not so good, so he may not be well positioned when his teammatess will cross the ball to him. So would be even greater if his passing value was swapped with his off the ball value

    He also has great finishing. Also great one-on-ones (one day i will share some new evidences its probably important att for strikers). Also, look his other atts, 18 for determination, 17 strenght, 16 stamina, good balance and pace, and good consistency. I see a couple bad mental atts but i wouldn mind.

    By the way, I looked this guy in the editor, I see he is a real player in odb .68 but all his attributes are set to 0 in the editor, so he had a very nice and rare randomness to generate such intrinsics in your savegame! I just started a new game in odb .68 to test it and the randomness gave him very very poor stats in my savegame, a 2 for jumping and a -46 for heading...

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  28. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermotron View Post
    Throw ins and One on Ones killing his effectiveness
    Hi Dermotron.

    Are you saying one on ones is killing his effectiveness because it's more related to goalkeepers?

    Then my question is why have most of the great freak goalscorerers got high one on one values?

  29. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    Then my question is why have most of the great freak goalscorerers got high one on one values?
    Nice question, it has been asked too by another forum member sometime ago in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippo10 View Post
    I was recently looking at some of CM 01/02's most prolific strikers (Maxim Tsigalko, To Madeira etc) on the save game editor and I noticed that they all have a high intrinsic attribute for one on ones. Is this a key attribute for strikers to score a lot of goals? Or is it better to set One on Ones to 1 in the pre-game editor and allow the intrinsic points to be applied on the traditional finishing and off the ball attributes?
    The answer he got was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus View Post
    I think you have answered your own question really. If you were to ask anyone what the important attributes for a striker in CM0102 are the usual reply would be 'finishing, jumping, off the ball, pace and acceleration" but you have noticed a correlation between the freaks having a high value for one on ones (intrinsically). To answer your question, run two tests - one with 20 for one on ones and one with 1 for one on ones.
    Then, if you follow that thread, you will see they started doing an experiment but they have never finished it.

    So, I also want to give my answer to that question, because I have made some findings about it recently. My answer is:

    If I had to bet today, based on some very very recent and strong evidences that have been appearing (some of them I have with me and still didnt have time to outline for sharing, but will soon), I would bet one-on-ones is a very important attribute for strikers too. However, evidences are only evidences, and while nobody makes a reliable experiment to prove that its important for strikers, i agree with Dermotron and prefer to consider for now that one-on-ones may kill effectivity of a player indeed, because so far there have been more experiments and data analysis done by the community pointing to it being goalkeeper only, and also because a high one-on-ones in-editor value usually takes more intrinsic points from the other attributes (reducing more the effectivity of the other attributes) than a high finishing in-editor value (for example) as I show below.

    The problem (and this is actually one of the new evidences i found) is its hard to make a reliable experiment with one-on-ones because it works differently than the other 14 CA-related outfield player attributes. For example, if you give a 10 in editor to Finishing, to Off the ball and to One-on-ones for a given player, you will see that the intrinsic value of his Finishing and Off the ball are equal but the intrinsic value of his one-on-ones is much higher*. This means a player with 20 in-editor for one-on-ones usually takes much more intrinsic points from the other CA-related atts than a player with 20 in finishing, so, you can't make a fair comparison between a 20 in one-on-ones and a 20 in finishing, as you could between a 20 in off the ball and a 20 in finishing, for example.

    Anyway, everyone is welcome to try and make experiments with one-on-ones, reliably or not, you may end up making a nice new discovery for the community.

    *Note: what I said in the asterisk isn't always actual for players with very high CA (around 150+), but I guess we are talking about freaks with low CAs in this topic so its about them im talking about
    Last edited by MadScientist; 15-03-19 at 02:56 PM. Reason: added little side note

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  31. #224
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    Here is one for all you Freak lovers...



    Quite possibly the ultimate intrinsically valuable forward of all time...

    He's a regen, btw

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  33. #225
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    Josh Blake regen?

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